Biblical Trust: Learning to Trust Wisely
Have you ever caught yourself thinking, "I'm just a trusting person," until someone proved you wrong? Or perhaps you’ve wondered whether forgiving someone means you must immediately trust them again.
In this tender and truth-filled conversation, Janet and Noelle explore what Scripture teaches about trust, forgiveness, wisdom, and the safety we have in Christ. While God calls us to place our whole hearts in Him, He does not ask us to give people the same unquestioning trust. Together, they lovingly unpack the difference between extending forgiveness and rebuilding trust—and how we can wisely give trust room to grow as faithfulness is demonstrated over time.
Whether you are recovering from broken trust, seeking to love someone wisely, or simply longing to grow in discernment, this episode offers biblical encouragement without shame or fear. Be reminded that Jesus is completely faithful, perfectly safe, and always worthy of your trust.
Resources:
Podcasts/Sermons
God is Unchanging - Faith Church Sermon
Gospel Motivations for Forgiveness Part 1 - Joyful Journey Podcast
Gospel Motivations for Forgiveness Part 2 - Joyful Journey Podcast
Milton Vincent Forgiveness Sermon Series
Books
Gentle and Lowly - Dane Ortlund
Website
Masters of Arts in Biblical Counseling
Transcript:
Jocelyn: I don't just need to feel better. I need the truth. And ultimately that will make me better.
Janet: I just want to make it as totally simple as possible for ladies to see that the Bible is really applicable to their everyday life.
Jocelyn: When they understand theology, the application flows out of it quickly with joy.
Janet: It is a journey, but even the journey itself is joyful when I'm doing it, holding the hand of my savior and trusting him all along the way. This is the joyful journey podcast, a podcast to inspire and equip women to passionately pursue beautiful biblical truth on their journey as women of God. When you choose truth, you're choosing joy.
Janet: Hello, welcome back. This is Janet here once again with my co-host Noelle.
Noelle: Hi, everyone.
Janet: And today we're gonna be talking to you about a word that I think we use a lot, but I'm not convinced we all really know what it means, myself included, so I was glad to get to study it. But we're gonna talk about the word trust.
Noelle: Trust. Like a trust fall. Should we start with some trust falls?
Janet: I don't trust to that degree, so no. And I learned it's okay that I don't. But anyway, I'm getting ahead of myself.
Noelle: All righty.
Janet: I do think because we use that word so much, we don't always know what it means, and I think sometimes we actually believe we're commanded to trust in places that maybe the Bible doesn't command me to trust. When is it commanded by God? Sometimes we don't think much about it, or I've heard this phrase, "You know, I'm a trusting person."
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: And I would say that if that's true, it's usually until that trust is betrayed.
Noelle: Sure.
Janet: Now I not only may start to have a lot of questions about what just happened and how do I think through that kind of a betrayal, but now I'm gonna probably find I walk forward kinda distrusting other people. And is that okay? Is that cynical? Is that wrong? What does the Bible actually say to me about trust? Because I believe that we, as followers of Jesus, are commanded to do whatever God says.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: My concern is that sometimes we've added to it-
Noelle: Sure ...
Janet: and lived under a weight that maybe isn't even from the Lord.
Noelle: Yeah, that makes sense.
Janet: So let's start with, as usual, defining our terms. When I looked it up in the New International Dictionary, here are some of the concepts: full of confidence, safety, security. So when I think about trust in those terms, it's at least in my mind very clear I'm commanded to trust God. I'm commanded to have complete confidence in God, to recognize I am 100% safe and 100% secure if I am in Christ, in God.
Noelle: Does that mean that we will never die 'cause we're always safe and always secure?
Janet: You know what? Spiritually, yes.
Noelle: Yeah. I just wanted to make sure we clarified that because sometimes when people say, "Oh, I feel safe," we need to clarify that doesn't necessarily mean that you don't die physically.
Janet: Right. Yeah, it's not a physical safety first. We are not... So that's absolutely right. I am secure in the ways that actually matter most.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: But that's right, it doesn't even mean I'll never get hurt.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: so I believe then that growing in my trust of that completely, 100%, all trustworthy God, that's gonna be the foundation for the lesser trusts that at different degrees we're gonna talk about what those look like.
Noelle: Sure.
Janet: So if we're commanded to trust God, Noelle, can you read... We're just gonna read through a few verses that just help us to get a picture of the fact that we're commanded to trust God. Jeremiah 17:7 and 8.
Noelle: Yes. Jeremiah 17:7 and 8 says, "Blessed is the man who trusts in the Lord, whose trust is in the Lord. He is like a tree planted by water that sends out its roots by the stream and does not fear when heat comes, for its leaves remain green, and is not anxious in the year of drought, for it does not cease to bear fruit."
Janet: There's so much we could even just do an hour on this verse. I love it. What happens for those who trust the Lord? they don't fear even when the heat or the pressure comes.
Noelle: Yeah. That's a beautiful picture.
Janet: Who doesn't want that? When you read that, I wanna be like a tree planted by water that's always green. How about Proverbs 3:5?
Noelle: Yeah. Proverbs 3:5, "Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding." That's a pretty common one to remember. Yeah.
Janet: Yes, and I want to lean on my own understanding, so I totally need this verse. So many times to remind me, no, with all of my heart, that is a command of God. I'm to trust him, not me.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: How about Psalm 20, verses six and seven?
Noelle: " Now I know that the Lord saves his anointed. He will answer him from his holy heaven with the saving might of his right hand. Some trust in chariots, some in horses, but we trust in the name of the Lord our God."
Janet: Excellent, and I love that. What do I trust in? And as you said earlier, I know he saves his anointed. That doesn't mean no pain will happen.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: It does mean I will be delivered.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: all the things that actually matter, that last for eternity, are 100% secure, and even the things that are happening on this world that are the journey to get there are 100% in control by the one who was willing to die for me.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: So I'm to trust in him. Good. Psalm 56:3 and 4.
Noelle: " When I am afraid, I put my trust in you. In God, whose word I praise, in God I trust. I shall not be afraid. What can flesh do to me?"
Janet: And I love that it starts with, "When I am afraid," and then says, "I shall not be afraid."
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: And I love that because isn't that where most of us live? Is not, "I'm just not afraid. I trust God." Like, that's awesome, but I have to fight to get there.
Janet: So when I am afraid, in that moment, I don't just say, "I can't believe this." no, I will put my trust in God, and then I shall not be afraid.
Noelle: Yeah. There's a song based on that Psalm. I can't remember all of it, so I won't reference the whole thing. But look it up.
Janet: When I see that verse, I think about, Steve Green has Bible songs for kids. And it was a little VHS video of it back in the day with that song that my kids used to listen to.
Noelle: Okay.
Janet: And at night, and it was a picture of a kid in a storm putting his hand on his Bible-
Noelle: Oh, that's cool
Janet: and remembering, and I still can remember that, but that's... So I know a little bit of a song about that too. I will not sing it.
Noelle: Oh, man.
Janet: just so you know. Isaiah 26:3 and 4.
Noelle: "You keep him in perfect peace whose mind is stayed on you, because he trusts in you. Trust in the Lord forever, for the Lord God is an everlasting rock."
Janet: Many of us have heard that passage, but I love that, and I love that when I keep my mind stayed on him because I trust him, I get peace.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: What a good God that that's what he chooses to give as a result of trusting him. Is a lack of fear. He gives us peace. what a God.
Noelle: And I love... that marries really well with the fact that you're talking about that trust doesn't mean the absence of trouble. Peace also doesn't mean the absence of chaos necessarily.
Janet: That's right.
Noelle: You know? peace means the way that you are regardless of circumstance, right?
Janet: Right, and that's completely supernatural.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: But it's a result. It's not something I make happen. It is a result of trusting God, and keeping my mind stayed there. Which what a kind God that this is what I'll give you, is that whatever's swirling around you, your soul will be at peace.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: And I don't live there, but I taste it. And I'm like, "I wanna visit more often."
Noelle: Yes.
Janet: But I wish I could say I live there, but this is what I wanna move toward, is a growing trust in the Lord that I can then say, "I have no idea what all's going on around me. I have no idea what's gonna happen next, and my soul is at peace." Even if I'm grieving, even if there's other things that are legitimate emotions, there is still a growing peace as there's a growing trust.
Noelle: Right. Because I can choose to actively trust.
Janet: Yes. Psalm 37:3-5.
Noelle: "Trust in the Lord and do good. Dwell in the land and befriend faithfulness. Delight yourself in the Lord and he will give you the desires of your heart. Commit your way to the Lord, trust in him, and he will act."
Janet: I love that. This is a passage that I have memorized that I go back to when we're in difficult seasons. My job is to trust and to do good, to befriend faithfulness, to dwell in the land he's given me. He's the one who will act. He's the one who will give me the desires of my heart." and he will actually orient those desires.
Noelle: Right, exactly.
Janet: Which is awesome. So we're not here to talk about every one of those verses in depth. But I would like to. But just to say it's just a smattering of verses, and even in those few, here's what we see. We are lovingly commanded to trust God.
Noelle: Right. And what's cool about that is we are lovingly commanded to trust him, but even within those commands, he gives you the reasons why. "This is what's going to happen when you trust in me." Isn't that awesome?
Janet: Yes. Because he doesn't have to do that.
Noelle: No.
Janet: It's like, "I'm God, you're not."
Noelle: Right.
Janet: But that's not his heart for us. Like, he tells us all the ways it will actually bless us to trust him. Yeah. And there are some listening to this who are now asking, "Why should I trust him?"
Noelle: Right.
Janet: Which I think is a legit question.
Noelle: It is.
Janet: And there's so many things we could talk about here. I can trust him because of his character. Yes. which means if I'm struggling to trust God, and welcome to the rest of us when we struggle in different seasons-
Noelle: Yeah ...
Janet: I can meditate on passages of scripture about what he's like, what is his character, what is his heart, and that's really gonna benefit me.
Noelle: Yes.
Janet: 'Cause the beautiful thing is, the more I know about God, the more reasons I have to trust him.
Noelle: Absolutely.
Janet: Which I love that that's what my God is like. That the more I know him, the more- Easy? It's never easy, but the easier it gets-
Noelle: Yeah ...
Janet: to choose to trust him. And we know that on a human level. The longer I know you, if you have been trustworthy, and if I see that your heart is one of affection for me, the easier it is for me to trust you.
Noelle: Absolutely.
Janet: Now, while that's never gonna be 100%, we'll talk about that in a minute, with God it will be, because there will never be anything he does-
Noelle: Right
Janet: that is not trustworthy.
Noelle: And because he's unchanging.
Janet: Yes. I know, I love... We just had a sermon on that.
Noelle: I know. That's what I was thinking about.
Janet: And I'm thinking, unchanging. I mean, that's good. That's true. And then you hear the sermon and you're like, "We totally need that."
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: That is hope for me-
Noelle: Yeah ...
Janet: is that God never changes. So yes, because of that, I can trust him.
Noelle: Yes.
Janet: And for me, I'm so thankful that I was born this side of the cross. God's character hasn't changed. He was gracious and loving from the beginning. As all throughout both Testaments in the Bible, God does not change. But when my heart's hurting and I'm struggling to trust God, because I'm on this side of the cross, I can do what I call hanging out at the cross.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: I will literally kneel by my bed and picture the cross, and I'll ask myself, "Okay, first of all, Janet, do you believe that happened? 'Cause if you don't, we gotta think through that." I actually do. I don't really doubt that that happened in history. Yes. Okay. Do you believe, Janet, God came in the flesh and died and rose again? I do.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: If you're not sure, study that. Ask your questions. God's word can stand up to that. Don't avoid it. Don't be afraid of it. But at this point in my life, I do And I will tell you, as I think about what draws my heart to trust him more the more I've gotten to know him, I recognized that I used to think that God came because he's God and he had to. Like, he always does what's right.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: It's the right thing to do, is to do for these people what they can't do for themselves. And, that's a true statement, but it was in my mind, and I wouldn't have verbalized it this way, but I recognize looking back that was kind of my mentality. It doesn't necessarily mean that he has a lot of affection for me, but he's God, and he's gonna do it.
Noelle: Yeah, but that's only a partial picture.
Janet: And that's what I was living under and didn't even know it, though I would pass a theology exam.
Noelle: Sure.
Janet: I knew he was good. I knew he was loving. I say all the things, but that's not how I related to him. And I didn't even realize it. And then when my kids were teenagers, our youth pastor had them go through systematic theology book. Took two years, but they read the whole thing, so I read it with them. And there was a chapter, and now I cannot remember if it's on angels or salvation. I don't remember what the chapter was about, but what the author noted was that when the angels rebelled and fell, God didn't give them a chance for redemption.I'd never thought about that before.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: And then to think he was still good.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: They were sealed in their rebellious state, and he was good, and he was right Okay? So he didn't have to... He could still be God. He could still do what is right. He didn't have to give us an opportunity for-
Noelle: Yeah
Janet: redemption. I mean, wow. And then I'm thinking, well, then why did he? And I realize I can't come up with any other reason except that he has an affection for us. He actually loves us. He actually loves me.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: And some are listening going, "Well, duh, we've known, you know, Jesus loves me. This I know." I get it. I could sing all the things, but There is a depth to just really understanding that a little more. I won't say I really understand it, but I understand it more. And since he loves me enough to leave the perfect beauty and unity of the Godhead, and I will not say he had to do that because he was lonely and needed us. I don't believe that that's true.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: I believe there was perfect unity, perfect fullness, perfect joy in the Godhead. And all three members of the Trinity wanted this plan, that Jesus would choose to leave that and come into this mess and be slandered and mocked and tortured and killed. When I understand that a little more, I can trust His heart when I can't understand anything else.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: He's worth trusting.
Noelle: Absolutely. I think it's incredible to think through He doesn't need us.
Janet: Yes.
Noelle: He doesn't need us at all, like you said, and then we get to choose to trust Him Because we see His affection for us. it's mind-blowing if you take- you know.
Janet: I know. And it's like, I need to slow down 'cause many of the people hearing this are gonna go, "I know." And I would've said that too.
Noelle: Sure.
Janet: But when I slow down, it's like, it is mind-boggling is a good word. So if it's not mind-boggling to anyone listening, slow down.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: 'Cause, it actually is. And that is gonna grow my trust in Him.
Noelle: Absolutely.
Janet: One who would do that when He didn't need to, just because He has an affection for me, even though He actually knows me. Like not because of a facade of me. Wow. and right now it's only a growing trust.
Noelle: Sure.
Janet: But He's so patient with me, and He helps me as I grow in that trust. So yes, we're gonna talk about practicals. We're gonna talk about trust in other relationships, but I just think that's foundational.
Noelle: So foundational.
Janet: And we're never done.
Noelle: Yeah .
Janet: You know? It's not like, "Well, I got that one and so now I'll move on." But I think I can grow deeper in that, and as I am applying it in other areas, what I'm finding... And we just continue to be in, just painful seasons, and I am rereading books that I've read that are solely on His heart for us.
Noelle: Yes.
Janet: I need to remember. I'm reading Gentle and Lowly and being amazed.
Noelle: I love that book.
Janet: And I've read it.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: I'm like, "I think I'll just read that again," and as I'm reading it again I'm like, " That's amazing."
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: So I just wrote a note. I'm probably just gonna be rotating between that and two or three others that are like that- and just keep reading them a little at a time. I need those reminders of what He's like. Only God is able to orchestrate all the events of my life and force them to bow to His good purposes for me. Only God.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: Only God is 100% trustworthy. And in contrast to this command of we must trust God, I was not able to find any passages that command us to trust anything or anyone other than God. Which was really interesting-
Noelle: Yeah ...
Janet: to me. So I'm not suggesting that there's not a place for a lesser trust-
Noelle: Sure
Janet: ... with those who've shown themselves trustworthy. I get that, but I think it's good to at least stop and recognize we're not commanded to trust mankind.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: We're just not. In fact, we're warned against having a misplaced trust. And that was fascinating as I'm like, "Okay, I can find so many passages of scripture about why I should trust God and the importance of trusting God, and that it's a command to trust God." And then when I look, okay, what does it say about trusting other people? Warned against.
Noelle: Yeah, which is interesting. I think in a practical daily setting, we probably do the flip-flop of that. You know? Like-
Janet: That's interesting ...
Noelle: like, I wouldn't actually admit that to you unless I'm really thinking about it. But, like, on a daily level, I'm trusting the people in my life to do the things that they're gonna s-
Janet: That's right
Noelle: they say, and I'm trusting in my boss to give me a paycheck, and I'm trusting in -- fill in the blank.
Janet: And It doesn't even occur to me that he won't. I trust that.
Noelle: Right. But then I struggle with, "God how can this possibly be what you've chosen for me? How is this best?"
Janet: Yes.
Noelle: You know?
Janet: That is fascinating. Like, we're doing the flip-flop.
Noelle: Right. God is the trustworthy one-
Janet: Yes
Noelle: ... not the people.
Janet: years ago when I read through the Book of Jeremiah, 'cause fear of man was enslaving for me for many years, and still in there, just not enslaving, typically. So I went through that book, and it just answered three questions: Every chapter, what is God like? What is man like? Why should I trust God? Period. And as every chapter, I'm like, "This is getting so repetitive." God does whatever he says he's gonna do, and man is so fickle.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: Over and over and over. Why? Oh, my word, they said this, and they did this. They made a promise, then they didn't It's, like, over and over and over. And I'm like, and God- I'm trying to trust man and not you. Like, what in the world? What am I doing? So we're told not to trust man.
Janet: We're also told don't trust riches.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: So there's another misplaced trust, and, I'll just list some verses. We don't need to read them all, but Job 31:24 if you wanna look these up on your own. Psalm 49:6, Psalm 62:10 says, "Don't set your heart on increased riches." Proverbs 11:28, "Trusting in riches will fall." So I do need to ask, am I putting ultimate trust in my retirement plan?
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: In my savings account? You know, to your point, we do trust these things.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: I trust that if I put that money in there, I'll be able to retire and I'll have it.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: Well, there's a degree to which I can say that's not a foolish decision, but it should never be an ultimate trust.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: I am not to trust in powerful people, which is interesting. Psalm 146:3, Psalm 118:9 both talk about not putting our trust in powerful people. So do I feel safe if the right people are on my side?
Noelle: That's interesting to think about.
Janet: if I am gonna have to go and justify myself, do I feel safe if I know whoever are the right powerful people, they're on my team? Is there a degree to which there's help in that? But where's my trust?
Noelle: Exactly.
Janet: You know? I'm not to trust in fortified cities, Deuteronomy 28:52, Jeremiah 5:17. Okay. Am I trusting in my country's ability to protect us? That would never happen in America.
Noelle: Sure.
Janet: Or in my town or whatever. I trust ultimately in fortified cities. You know, as you think about it, it's like, wow, that's a... All of these are very unsafe places to put your trust.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: a big one for me, do I trust myself?
Noelle: Yeah . I do.
Janet: You know, I am commanded by God not to put trust in myself, that that's a misplaced trust.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: Proverbs 3:5 we already read, Proverbs 28:26 as well. so how much do I lean on my own understanding? And for many of us, we might say, "No, I know I can't trust me. I have to trust God." Think about this. How often do I determine what I believe by, "Well, this just makes sense to me"?
Noelle: Right.
Janet: Well, then who's my trust in?
Noelle: Or my gut reaction is-
Janet: Yes, yes ...
Noelle: I say that .
Janet: Yes.
Noelle: Which, you know, of course, if I'm filtering things through the Bible, then maybe that's part of my gut. But-
Janet: Yeah ...
Noelle: but not all the time.
Janet: Exactly. And so it's like, okay, my gut reaction should tell me possible, now let me go-
Noelle: Yeah ...
Janet: somewhere else and confirm that. You know, but we do that. or I can't believe it if I don't understand it. If it doesn't make sense to me, it can't be true.
Noelle: Or if my feelings don't align with it.
Janet: Yes.
Noelle: That's a big one for me.
Janet: Yeah, yeah.
Noelle: Maybe I wouldn't say that I trust in myself, but then I say, "Yeah, but Janet, this doesn't feel right," so.
Janet: Yes. I don't have peace about it.
Noelle: Yeah .
Janet: And I'm like, wow, all right.
Noelle: That's a very Christian way to say .
Janet: Yeah, yes. Well, it makes us feel better about it. Yes. And all of that is a trust in me.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: And well, I've mentioned this, so I'll just give you some verses to go with it too. We are not to trust in man. Psalm 118:8, Psalm 41:9 is someone betrayed by a friend who was trusted.
Janet: Jeremiah 17:5, Isaiah 2:22, so many verses about not trusting in man and not fearing man.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: And I think in these contexts, there's an implication that we're gonna be tempted to trust any of these things rather than trusting in God.
Noelle: Sure. It's not like these things are evil-
Janet: Right
Noelle: ... but rather than trusting in God, it would be wrong.
Janet: Right.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: Is trust in anyone or anything other than God ever then wise? And I think that's the key, is for us to be able to say, what is wise? 'Cause the Bible tells me a lot about living in wisdom. So my trust is in God.
Janet: Okay. What do we see in scripture about how we relate to other people and things? Well, we have some examples of trusting the trustworthy.
Noelle: Sure.
Janet: Proverbs 31:11, that Proverbs 31 woman that we love to hate or hate to love- ... or whatever that whole relationship is like. But what it says is that the husband safely trusts in her-
Noelle: Yeah
Janet: because she's a faithful partner. Now, it may be a personification, she's a, but here's what I know. If she's a real person, there are times she lets him down.
Noelle: Sure.
Janet: But there is a degree of trust because she's a faithful partner. 1 Corinthians 4:2 says, A steward of the mysteries of God should be faithful or trustworthy."
Noelle: Right.
Janet: So if a steward of the mysteries of God, someone who ministers the word is trustworthy, then there's a degree of trust that it makes sense to give the trustworthy.
Noelle: Absolutely.
Janet: James 5:16 implies there's a degree of trust if we're gonna be confessing our sins to each other, which is what that verse tells us to do. While I'm probably not gonna put it on a billboard- ... with a bunch of people I don't trust.
Noelle: Sure.
Janet: But there is a degree of trustworthiness around other believers in Christ that I know, and those are people to whom I can confess my sin. Proverbs 11:13, there's a contrast there between a talebearer and one who's trustworthy. So if I'm a talebearer, people should not trust me.
Noelle: What's another word for talebearer?
Janet: Gossip.
Noelle: Yeah, that's what I was thinking.
Janet: Yes. Just talks too much.
Noelle: Well, what if we say, "But Janet, this is a safe space, and you can- ... tell me anything that you need to." Now, I, it's not that I hate the word safe space. I've used it before, but sometimes people use that to say, "Oh, you can trust me. It's a safe space." And it's like, well, yeah, but you should still only be sharing the correct information.
Janet: That's right.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: There needs to be an edifying reason to share something- if it's not about just me.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: About me, I can ask you for help, which is also an edifying reason. Yeah.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: But contrasting that with if someone is trustworthy, they're making it easy for you to do right. They're not trying to get you to say things that you ought not.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: And when you do share with them ways that you need help, you have reason to believe they didn't just get on Facebook and tell everybody else, or do a thread with their friends to say, "Please pray. Guess what I just found out." You know, they're trustworthy.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: Okay. So as we deepen our trust in God, we're gonna grow our ability to wisely trust others, and I'm gonna say it this way, wisely risk.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: The beautiful thing is with God, it's zero risk.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: We act like it's a huge risk. I'm afraid to trust God with this, because what? He's 100% trustworthy. But none of us are.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: So it's always a risk, but there's wise risk and foolish risk. And I think that's the difference between trusting anything or anyone other than God. I should know that it's a risk, and I choose to take it, and I can. But when I'm vulnerable with God, there's no risk He's having a bad day. There's no risk He's gonna use what I've said against me. You know, we've been in some situations recently where words have been twisted. And I found, I went through a season, I didn't recognize I was doing it, but when I was talking to the Lord, I kept rephrasing things-
Noelle: Yeah ...
Janet: to make sure that He understood- and that He wasn't gonna take it the wrong way-
Noelle: Yep
Janet: ... or it's like, and at some point I recognized, I'm getting, okay, that's not what I mean. It's more like, no, but I do know that, I'm try- and I thought, "Oh my word, I don't have... He gets it."
Noelle: Yeah, He knows your heart.
Janet: He know, and it's safe, even when my heart is ugly.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: Even when I'm talking to him and my heart is not right, He knows and it's safe.
Noelle: That's incredible.
Janet: It is. and it hit me, like, oh my word, there is a 100% safe place-
Noelle: Yeah ...
Janet: where I don't have to think, "Am I saying it the right way?" I still want to be humble and honest, but even if I don't know how to say it right, He knows. And He can even help me figure out what I'm trying to say, but it's not in order to make sure He understands.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: He can help me. That's the only relationship that's like that.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: I'm never gonna be betrayed. I'm never gonna be let down. He's never even just gonna forget. I mean, I have forgotten to do and say helpful things for people I love.
Noelle: Oh, yeah. Me too.
Janet: I wish that were not the case, but I have just forgotten. Sometimes I'm also just sinful, and sometimes... But God, never, never. So He doesn't always do what I think is best. But I'm finite-
Noelle: Yeah
Janet: ... and I can be wrong. He will never be wrong, and when I think through just that piece, it's like I can take a deep breath. It's like, okay. And I have actually noticed that. Like, I'll be praying and I'm still tense, and I'm like... But, and, and, and I think, "Stop. I can take a deep breath. I can just, even if it's not all coherent, I can take it there."
Noelle: Right.
Janet: And it's completely safe. So any other person, risk.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: Consider, even in Proverbs 31:11, "The heart of her husband trusts in her, and he will have no lack of gain." That is an overall character quality, and we need to strive for that. But is that a guarantee she never let him down?
Noelle: No. Definitely not.
Janet: Yeah, I don't think so. but I still think it was wise that he trusted her.
Noelle: Sure. Absolutely.
Janet: She was trustworthy. So wisdom would tell us at least trust the trustworthy.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: Trust those who have been faithful in their trustworthiness. That's where I should have a growing degree of trust, and it takes time.
Noelle: Yeah, it does.
Janet: which makes me think about when people will say, "I can't believe. Don't you trust me?" And I'm like, that's not something wrong with me possibly-
Noelle: Right
Janet: if I don't 100% trust you. I sat in a counseling room back in the day. I was helping a wife, and the husband and wife were in counseling, and the counselor was talking, and I was just sitting there with the wife. The man was very offended that his wife didn't trust him. And there had been reasons.
Noelle: Sure.
Janet: So it wasn't, there were reasons.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: And I remember the pastor looking at him and saying I don't even trust myself.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: So why is it so shocking to you that someone would not trust you?
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: But right. Right. So in general, an institution or a person, you know, you want to see faithfulness and trustworthiness before I will increase my trust-
Noelle: Yeah
Janet: in that person. think about it like, okay, bank's been around for 100 years. Okay, you've seen the financial records. Okay, they're a bank and they've also got, you know, they're insured, all of that. And everything you see would indicate they've been faithful stewards of the money that they've received. Okay Is it wise for you to put your money with that bank?
Noelle: Sure.
Janet: I think so, but it's not 100% guaranteed that they'll always be trustworthy.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: It's just a wise risk.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: And if, in that wise risk, I lost the money, here's what I know. I have 100% trust in the God who orchestrated even that. So my trust in God is again where I land.
Noelle: Right. Exactly. And the contrast to that would be quickly trusting a get-rich-quick scheme-
Janet: Yes
Noelle: ... or something, right? So, I mean-
Janet: Yes
Noelle: ... it's easier to talk about than relationships with people. For a money to say, "Oh yeah, it's a wise risk with this bank that's been established and that has..."
Janet: It's FDIC insured and-
Noelle: Right
Janet: you know, okay, all the things. It's like, yeah, but the guy who comes to your door and says, "If you give me $100,000, you'll have a million by the end of the week."
Noelle: Right.
Janet: Is that wise?
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: Yeah. And ultimately, I trust the God who is superintending over all of it, and whose wisdom principles I follow. That's, again, my ultimate trust is gonna be my anchor. If I make wise decisions and I lose all my retirement, I trust God. It does not equal I was foolish. Now, maybe I was and I need to handle that, but it doesn't mean that necessarily. and it's not wrong that after that would happen, should the bank come to me and say, "Hey, that'll never happen again. Sorry about that. Give us more of your money."
Janet: Should I trust them? Well, you're a believer, Janet, and they've asked forgiveness. You should trust. No. For now, they have to build the trust.
Noelle: Exactly.
Janet: And more complicated, relationships.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: So. I know. That's why I start with money. It's a little more obvious ...
Noelle: No. let's stay with the bank.
Janet: Yeah, yeah. That's easier to deal with. Okay, I'm at church. I meet a new person. We exchange numbers. We meet for coffee. Do I trust her? Should I?
Noelle: That's a good question.
Janet: Am I commanded by God to trust her? I'm gonna say not really.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: Now, I am commanded by God to not assume the worst.
Noelle: Exactly.
Janet: So I am commanded by God to not assume I bet you're an evil person who's writing down everything I say, and you're gonna go twist it.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: I have no reason to think that either.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: But I don't know her.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: That's not cynical. I just haven't had the opportunity to see faithfulness and trustworthiness.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: So because I believe in the power of God, and I believe that people can be trustworthy- I'm gonna give her an opportunity-
Noelle: Absolutely
Janet: to build that. But it's not wrong that I don't say, "We've just met for the first time and I'm gonna tell you something really hard about me that I don't want anybody else to know. Would you pray with me?" Probably not.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: I don't know her. So probably not gonna give her my Social Security number. You know? My husband and I joke about that. Like, the people that text and say, you know, "Someone in Nigeria needs your money," I'm like, "Well, they probably need my Social Security number for sure. Let me make sure I give them that, too." You know, so we can be most helpful. Yeah. So no. No. I meet a lot of women that way, and one of them I got to know really well. We've spent a lot of time together. We've cried together. We've prayed together. We've worked through cancer things together. We've served for years together, and you know what? if she said to me, "I need your Social Security number for something," I gotta tell you, I would give it to her.
Noelle: Sure.
Janet: I would. Trust has grown. I see her trustworthiness. I would give it to her Now what happens when I have trusted someone, and maybe rightly, we're gonna just assume rightly, wisely, and it was broken?
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: Now what?
Noelle: Well, that never happens, so we don't have to talk about that.
Janet: Oh, okay. Okay, good. Good. We're all, like, listing people in my head.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: Yes, yes. And David understands that.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: And he wrote about it in Psalm 41:9. He says this: "Even my close friend in whom I trusted, who ate my bread, has lifted his heel against me."
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: And we know that that has a unique pain-
Noelle: Yeah, it does ...
Janet: when it's someone I have trusted, because that means I've opened my heart.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: And I'm more vulnerable, and I've been hurt Well, in the past, in other episodes, in January, we did a couple of episodes on gospel motivations to forgive.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: And I referenced Milton Vincent's sermon series on forgiveness. It's so good. Near the end of that series, he has a great sermon on the relationship between forgiveness and trust.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: Highly recommend because I think many people think, "If I've forgiven them, I have to trust them."
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: And many people who've been forgiven are like, "You said you forgave me. If you really forgave me, you'd trust me."
Noelle: Yeah. Forgive and forget, Janet.
Janet: Yeah, exactly. But remember, I trust the trustworthy.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: But I love all.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: I stand ready to forgive all based on how I've been forgiven. So What does rebuilding trust look like? Well, okay, I believe in the power of the gospel, so I would allow an opportunity to demonstrate trustworthiness. And that's not wrong. That's not fleshly. That's not a lack of forgiveness. That's wisdom.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: I won't say, which is the temptation when you've really been hurt, "I will never trust that person again."
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: ' Cause what I've said is, I don't believe the power of the gospel is big enough to get them to a point where it would be wise to trust them. Now, it might take a long time.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: And they may have to do a lot of things. But it's not a lack of faith that I don't immediately trust. So if they demonstrate trustworthiness over time, then degrees of trust can be restored.
Noelle: Absolutely.
Janet: And as I say that, I have situations floating around in my head
Noelle: yeah. ...
Janet: that complicate this so much. Sin complicates things.
Noelle: It does.
Janet: there are times when it's unwise to have future dealings with a person. And there are gonna be confusing situations. Being in a situation where you are counseled the godly thing to do right now is do not respond and do not communicate. Everything about that seems wrong.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: And it's like, but I get it, and there are passages of scripture for that. I'm not getting into all that today. Seek counsel when it's confusing.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: I must love. I must. But, when someone has betrayed my trust, here's what I know. Number one, I too have sinned against God.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: And he knows how to change me, and he is changing me.
Janet: Number two, God has the power to change others. I believe that, and there is no one that God cannot change. But number three, not everyone avails themselves of that power.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: And it will take time to see. God knows immediately. I don't.
Noelle: Yeah. I was thinking, a lot of times- kind of both in Christian circles and secular circles, I think- love is equated with trust. And I think-
Janet: Yes
Noelle: ... you're pointing out that biblically, those definitions don't align.
Janet: That's right.
Noelle: They can-
Janet: That's right ...
Noelle: but they might not.
Janet: That's right.
Noelle: Because we are commanded to love all.
Janet: Right. And not all are trustworthy.
Noelle: Exactly. So that's kind of an interesting thing to think about in the situations you talked about where there could be really confusing-
Janet: Yep
Noelle: things. You are still commanded to love that person-
Janet: Yes
Noelle: ... but that does not necessarily mean trust always.
Janet: Right.
Noelle: Or right away or whatever.
Janet: Right. And so I pray. I pray for them, I pray blessing on them.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: And I pray that God might allow a restored relationship where trust could grow.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: But they're not the same. And on a practical level, we do know that. The example that Milton Vincent gave, he gave a couple different ones, but the one that I'm like, totally. As a parent, do I love my child? Yes. If my child was caught leaving the house in the middle of the night over and over and over, and then they come to me and say, "I know I was wrong. Will you forgive me?" Do I need to forgive them?
Noelle: Yes.
Janet: Yes. I'm commanded by God. I don't get to go, "I don't know how I feel about that."
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: Do I love them? Yes. Do I trust them? Not yet.
Noelle: Not yet.
Janet: And I believe it would be very unloving to trust them.
Noelle: Right. And on the flip side of that, it would also be unloving to never trust them again-
Janet: Yes
Noelle: if they prove themselves trustworthy, right?
Janet: Exactly.
Noelle: 'Cause we also can't just become super cynical and-
Janet: Yep
Noelle: ... say, "Well, they betrayed me the once, or they disobeyed me the once, or they broke my trust the once, and now I can never trust again."
Janet: Right. And that's the gospel.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: Is, I know God can change. And sometimes when we say that, "I'll never trust again," here's what we're saying: I don't wanna hurt again.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: It's about me. I will protect myself from future pain by never trusting someone who's hurt me.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: But that's not the gospel. Jesus did not protect himself from pain. And if over time my child demonstrates trustworthiness in a variety of ways, we have to get creative on how we help them be able to do that, and how much time, and, wisdom, wisdom, wisdom, and I trust my child, and they sneak out of the window again.I don't say this: I shouldn't have trusted them. I can't say it's not fair. What I say is, trust is always a risk.
Noelle: Yeah, always a risk.
Janet: Always, except with God. Which is why that's got to be the one I keep coming back to.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: That has to determine how and when I trust anyone else.
Noelle: Absolutely.
Janet: It's because of God. So if I see with wisdom, biblical principles, there's a growing trust in my child, then it was right to do that, and the Lord allowed even my trust in them to provide them an opportunity, and they sinned, and it clarified where they were. And that's actually a gift of God.
Noelle: Absolutely.
Janet: But it hurts.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: The gospel's just so different. Because I believe in the gospel, my heart's stance can never be, "I'm unwilling."
Noelle: Right.
Janet: No. Done. I wanna be wise with the knowledge God's given me. I can't see their heart. If you're told by them that they've repented and changed, I rejoice, but since I can't see their heart, I have to wait for trustworthy fruit. I do, and that's not wrong. That's just acknowledging my finitude, that I'm not God. Only God sees their heart, and praise God that He can.
Janet: I had to say to somebody once who was struggling, and there was, for reasons then I did not trust and couldn't, because there had not been trustworthiness.
Noelle: Sure.
Janet: And what I was able to say is, "But you know what? If you have repented, the Lord knows that right now. So if and when I ever know or have reason to believe that is so low and secondary compared to you live before the Lord."
Noelle: Right.
Janet: And praise the Lord, He knows immediately, but I don't. And I can allow this need to deepen my trust in God.
Janet: Because what can happen is I may find that not only do I not trust that person, who hasn't rebuilt trust yet, okay, so that may be legit, now I mistrust others. Because here's what I know: others could betray me. I've tasted how much it hurts, and I don't ever wanna risk that again.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: I just don't want to hurt. So I'm gonna have to have a deeper trust in God. and it doesn't mean I didn't trust God at all.
Noelle: Sure.
Janet: 'Cause I don't want that to sound like if you, "Oh, I thought I trusted God, and I don't." No, I need a deeper... And he knew that, and he knew how to help me get there.
Janet: God knew how to surface that need for it to deepen, and many times it's by taking away the other things that have been competing with him for my trust, instead of them being under him.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: And I don't know that. So practically, a variety of situations. How do I respond to maybe somebody new to me that I don't know anything about, somebody who's hurt me, or other people after I've been hurt and I know that hurt is a thing? People who've listened to this podcast long probably get tired of hearing me say this, but I truly believe the first thing I have to do, analyze my own heart.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: It's not all the other things. Matthew 6, a passage in the middle of the Sermon on the Mount, longest recorded sermon by Jesus, all about what righteous living looks like, and in the middle of it, in chapter 6, he's talking about worry and anxiety, and I think he gives us some principles that apply here, too. Let's read Matthew 6:20-23. Noelle, can you read that?
Noelle: Absolutely. "But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are healthy, your whole body will be full of light. But if your eyes are unhealthy, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!"
Janet: Wow. After telling us that what we treasure is gonna rule our heart, he talks about our eye, what we see. If our eyes are cloudy and we can't see clearly, we're gonna be filled with darkness.
Janet: Matthew 7, we're gonna see later, he's gonna go on and talk about our eyes again. This time he warns that we can't see to confront sin in someone else when we got a beam in our own eye. Can you read Matthew 7:5?
Noelle: Yes. It says, "You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye."
Janet: So apparently, I'm gonna be tempted to keep a beam in my eye and say, "I know I don't trust well. I know I'm a little cynical. I know I have my own heart issues, but I'm pretty sure I see clearly enough to take a speck out of your eye."
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: And think about that when it comes to determining if I should trust, how I should trust. Well, my own heart's gonna be surfaced, and if I'm not dealing with that, I will not see clearly to be wise in this area. It takes the help of God to be wise. The last thing I need is to be blinded by my own idolatry when I'm trying to be wise.
Noelle: Absolutely.
Janet: I may trust foolishly, well, they said, and I so want everything to be okay, the idol of I have to have this relationship, that I continue to trust the untrustworthy foolishly. Or I so wanna make sure I never hurt again, I will be cynical unnecessarily.
Janet: So if my goal, avoid pain- If my heart is clamoring after avoid pain, and quite frankly, that tends to be where mine goes.
Janet: Yeah.
Janet: I've been hurt in the past, I will not be hurt again. Our family's motto, one of them, my dad used to say this, "Hurt me once, shame on you. Hurt me twice, shame on me." Like, that was a thing.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: And I was like, "Yeah, yeah." Well, no. Is that an appropriate goal? Well, if my ultimate goal is I wanna look like Jesus, is that what he did? He walked toward pain because his goal was to please his father and love us.
Noelle: That's crazy.
Janet: It is crazy.
Noelle: And awesome.
Janet: It's totally appropriate to not trust one who hasn't been trustworthy.
Noelle: Sure.
Janet: But now it's spread beyond that. Now I'm saying it's not because they're not trustworthy and I'm trying to be wise. Now it's, I will avoid all pain. So God may be using this to surface some things I'm going after in place of God,and didn't even know it. Like, I will not get hurt.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: Or maybe my goal, I need to make sure this never happens again. Maybe I decide I will never be fooled again. I will know all that can be known so that I can make decisions that make sense to me.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: And now I clamor after knowledge. I'm cynical. I have to know everything about everything before I decide if I'm gonna trust.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: I'm gonna call it wisdom. I'm gonna call it understanding it all so I can make a wise decision, but that's not my heart. My heart is I trust only me.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: I trust my understanding, and if I can completely understand, I will prevent future betrayal.
Noelle: Yeah. It's trying to control your own life.
Janet: Yes.
Noelle: I do that. I mean, probably not that blatantly, but I definitely do that.
Janet: Yeah.
Noelle: For sure, yeah.
Janet: And I think, we all may tend toward one more than another, but we do these things.
Noelle: Sure.
Janet: And I think it's helpful to go, "Oh, I need to know my heart." "I need to know my tendency so that I can reject that when I'm trying to be wise." And those areas get surfaced, and as I see them, I don't run to self-pity. I don't say, "I can't believe I can be that bad." I find my anchor in the God who knows everything about me and still is 100% trustworthy and safe.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: I recognize this trial, whatever this painful thing is that's going on, may be a severe mercy from God that's moving me from inferior ultimate trust in something else, which is even maybe no pain, into a deeper trust in him, which is best for me, and he knows it. It's not just 'cause I just want her to have that. He knows that's what my soul needs. And he knows that's actually freeing, which is what I want.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: I wanna be free. I want to not be, "Ah, I'll..." And I think I'll control. That's how I'll keep it down.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: No. The safest place to be, I trust him.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: And this earthquake in my life that may be upending who I thought I could trust, what I thought I could trust, it can lead me to a better place.
Noelle: Absolutely.
Janet: And as I'm intentionally believing this, now I can see clearly to start applying wisdom in different scenarios.
Noelle: Yeah, let's talk about it.
Janet: Yeah. Someone I don't know. What do you think? What should trust look like with someone you've just met?
Noelle: Well, I think a lot of people base it off their gut feeling or-
Janet: Yes
Noelle: their gut reaction, how do I feel in front of this person?
Janet: Okay. I'm just gonna tell you something here. It's just so funny to me. It's so interesting. 'Cause we all have those.
Noelle: Sure.
Janet: And I talked to Dr. Hodges about this once. Biblical counselor, medical doctor, and said to him, "What do you do with that like Instinct?"
Noelle: Right.
Janet: Maternal... Whatever they say, it's like if you just think it, they talk about that in safety things.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: Like, if you're getting that, get out of there. What do you call that? And he said, it's so fascinating. He's like, "What happens in your brain is in all of our situations, it is comparing it to everything else we've ever known-
Noelle: Yeah
Janet: all the time, and coming up, and- and that's why you shouldn't ignore it, 'cause it might be that you don't recognize it, but that look in their eye that is 'I'm going to do something,' you've seen that before, and when you saw it, you got hurt."
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: And now you see it, and you don't really know what you're seeing. All you know is red flags are going off."
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: He's like, "It can also mean they have a beard like the person who hurt me."
Noelle: Right.
Janet: And so they're really not unsafe, but your brain made the connection.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: So don't ignore it, but it's not God.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: Now, isn't that fascinating?
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: It's like that gut instinct comes from something.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: And so it should give me pause as I try to figure out where it came from, and if it's, "Oh, you look like Aunt Hilda." That doesn't mean you act like Aunt Hilda, just because you both have the same hairstyle. You know? But if it means the look on your face, your demeanor, your stance coming at me-
Noelle: Sure
Janet: those all may be letting me know you are aggressive.
Noelle: Exactly.
Janet: And my brain is going, "We've seen this before, and it was bad. Run." And that would be wise.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: but it's not 100% right. Anyway.
Noelle: Right. So-
Janet: So we go off our gut instinct.
Noelle: Yeah, so what I'm hearing you say is I should never trust a man with a beard.
Janet: That's what I'm hear- except my husband. And my son, and many other people. Yes.
Noelle: Oh, my goodness. Anyway, okay, so obviously that's not instinct, but I think what I heard you say before with someone you don't know is, hey, go ahead and love that person, and walk forward in steps that could produce trust, but don't immediately trust.
Janet: Exactly. Exactly. So I'm gonna invest in them. I'm gonna image God in a way that encourages righteousness in them, because that's what I should do with everyone all the time. I can't say I do that, but that's the goal.
Noelle: Sure.
Janet: I'm open, as you said, to a growing trust in them, if, as they have opportunities to show their trustworthiness. So I'm gonna risk in wise, smaller ways to give an opportunity to build it.
Noelle: Yeah
Janet: So I'll say, "Hey, let's meet at this place at this time."
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: And they never show. I'm learning.
Noelle: Yep.
Janet: But it was a small risk.
Noelle: Sure.
Janet: You know, and over time you risk a little more. "Hey, could you help me with this and do this?"
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: "Hey, could you..." And I'll share a little, they'll share a little. We risk a little, and it grows or it won't-
Noelle: Exactly ...
Janet: depending on their trustworthiness.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: Yeah. So how about with someone who's hurt me?
Noelle: Well, that probably depends on how they responded after they hurt you, right?
Janet: Probably.
Noelle: Are they repentant or not is the first thing that comes to my mind.
Janet: Yep. Yep.
Noelle: And if it's a pattern of hurt. I don't know. I think there's probably lots of questions that could be answered there.
Janet: See, I love that because what you're saying is it's not, well, if they've said they've repented, trust them. You're saying it's complicated and it takes wisdom.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: And I completely agree. So if it's my goal, honor God, trust, 100% trust that God's ways are best. I can 100% trust that, and that he only allows into my life what's best for my soul, and that's gonna take a while. But when I get there, now I'm free to think about what's wise and what's best for the soul of the other person. I'm not thinking about me anymore.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: What's best for them. Now I can see, at least for the moment. So to your, have they repented, did they own their sin? And I phrase it that way 'cause sometimes they'll say they're repentant and they're sorry. They don't really own their sin.
Noelle: Sure.
Janet: So it's the same thing. It just helps me think through. Did they actually own their sin, or did they say, "Sorry, I was having a bad day and I hadn't slept," and whatever, uh, da, da, da, da, da, da.
Noelle: I'm sorry that you felt that way.
Janet: Yes. Which is clearly your problem. I worked with this woman years and years and years ago, secular environment, and I really liked her, but I was new to the organization and she, I don't even remember her behavior. It was not bad. I really liked her, but she must have been impatient or doing something because she said, "Sorry, that's just not like me." And I'm like, "Okay," you know? Yeah. And then she said that so many times over the months, and I found myself wanting to go, "Maybe it just is." 'Cause, like, you keep saying, "That's not me."
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: "Sorry, that's not like me." I'm like, "What are you like then? Apparently, I don't know because I've been here how many months, and this is what you're like." But I'm like, that's what we wanna do instead of own it.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: This isn't me.
Noelle: Sorry, I never wear pink shirts. I only wear them five days a week.
Janet: Exactly, exactly, but that's not who I am. So, if someone's betrayed me and they haven't owned their sin, it would be foolish to trust them.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: I must love them, and I believe it'd be unloving to trust them-
Noelle: Sure
Janet: ... because I would be encouraging them to continue in sin. What I want is for them to live in humble, joyful integrity before the Lord, and that is a phrase that I use in my prayers a lot with people that I have difficulty in the relationship where there's not a repentance or there's a breach somehow.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: I don't want to just pray, bring them to repentance, because sometimes that just fuels my own- justification or whatever.
Noelle: Right. Yeah, seeking vengeance.
Janet: Yeah. It's like, I don't want that. but I do want them to repent, but here's what I want positively for them. I want them to live in humble, joyful integrity before the Lord. I want that for them.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: So I pray that. And that will include owning their sin.
Noelle: Yeah, absolutely.
Janet: So I'm gonna pray that for them regularly. I'm gonna thank God He has the power to change us-
Noelle: Yeah
Janet: ... and to change them.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: So my belief in the gospel means I know He can change them and there's hope, and I don't trust them.
Noelle: Right. A prayer that I like to pray for people in my life that are in that situation is, I think from Ezekiel, maybe you can tell me if this is true, the heart of stone into the heart of flesh.
Janet: I think you're right. I-
Noelle: Those references
Janet: ... don't have it down, but I think that's right. Yes.
Noelle: I think it just says it really beautifully, and it helps me keep my heart towards the Lord, 'cause I can't control their heart, you know?
Janet: Yes. Yes. And we know that He can, yes. So what if they've acknowledged their sin, and they have owned it verbally? 'Cause initially that's all they can do.
Noelle: Sure.
Janet: Okay. Well, now I can pray for opportunities for them to rebuild trust.
Noelle: Absolutely.
Janet: I don't say, "I will withhold my affection until you've earned it." I love immediately, and I pray. And it should be clear, and it will take time. I've been in situations where there's a lot of, how will we know if this person, if it's wise to trust them again, or to believe their words if they've had a history of not being trustworthy? And here's the thing, I believe it'll be clear.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: Over time it'll just be clear. Because there will be a humility, there will be an owning of sin, there will be... Like, so many of the character issues that are around not being trustworthy, you will see that they're the opposite.
Noelle: Exactly.
Janet: So if my eyes are clear, I can wisely give time and opportunity for trust to be rebuilt. And it's a risk, and it's never ultimate. I don't trust them now because I know they'll never do it again.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: I trust because it's wise, and it's a level of trust that fits biblical wisdom.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: And if I get hurt again, I trust God to help me, and that He'll use even that for my good. And I can look back and go, "Did I trust unwisely? Was I clamoring after the relationship so much?" Then I'll learn. Or maybe, no, that was wise to trust, and I've been hurt again, and Jesus gets that-
Noelle: Right ...
Janet: as He was hurt by one of His own disciples.
Noelle: Right. and you quantified that at the beginning. I wanna reemphasize it. You said, "If my eyes are clear."
Janet: Yes.
Noelle: So going back to the verse in Matthew about the plank in your eyes, because you really can't just say, "Well, they acknowledged their sin, and now I'm gonna walk forward," if you haven't evaluated your own heart, so.
Janet: Yes.
Noelle: It's all on that foundation still.
Janet: Totally. Yes. Yes. it's just a reminder, it's a growing trust in God that will be the only way I'm gonna know how to wisely risk.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: And when we've been hurt, I believe a wise act of humility is to seek counsel.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: We may need help from someone who is wise to help ensure that we're being wise. I have to humbly acknowledge my own need for help. Sometimes I have a log in my eye and I don't even know it.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: You know, but as I go to them and say, "Well, I think..." And I have worked with some precious people who've said, "I trust them," and I'm like, "Why?" Like, they've said this 12 times-
Noelle: Yeah
Janet: ...and not followed through. But they see it as they can't even see the idol of I want this relationship so badly.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: But they were humble and wise enough to come and say, "What do you think?" And let me help them. Well, let's think about what you've seen, what we know, and get counsel. And with wise counsel, we can determine what are appropriate and clear evidences of repentance.
Noelle: Yes.
Janet: And it's loving where we can to be clear. What do we believe would demonstrate repentance in this situation? Here's what it is not typically, a list of behaviors. Because if I want you to trust me again, and you tell me, "If you answer my calls, if you da, da, da, da, da," I can do all those things without a change of heart. And now you've just given me a list, and then when I do it, I get to say to you, "I did the list. You have to trust me."
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: And you're like, "I don't know." So as I'm thinking about what I'm looking for, it's not typically a list of behaviors.
Noelle: And that would probably be the most natural thing.
Janet: It is.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: And I've been there, like when we've been in situations, then we're like, "They're doing the list."
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: We shouldn't have given a list.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: You know, one training that we went to, talking about abusive spouses was, if they're repentant, they won't need a list.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: I was like, wow. Like, they'll initiate. "I shouldn't have done this. This is what will be different." If you have to tell them, that's part of the problem.
Janet: So I might be asking them, "What do you think I should look for?"
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: " What do you think would be evidence of repentance?"
Noelle: That's good.
Janet: And you know, a willingness to if it's been something about a betrayal in a relationship, a willingness to be tracked and monitored as long as the other person wants is at least an evidence of humility. It's not everything.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: But it's an evidence of humility instead of you should just believe me.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: No, I really shouldn't. So fruits of repentance are part of it. If they're owning their sin, if they're truly demonstrating fruits of repentance, which are heart attitudes that you will see.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: And it's an initiating... Like if the Spirit's at work and they're repentant, I don't have to tell them that they should be humble.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: If I have to tell them all of that, there's questions. But if they're at that point where there is evidence of repentance that is clear and wise people would agree- now I get to image God and give them loving encouragement in that. ' Cause I've already been working on my own heart, so I'm not operating out of withholding my affection until you prove yourself enough because I don't wanna be vulnerable again. I don't do that. I'm wanting to encourage righteousness in them, and I'm looking for evidence of it so I can encourage them.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: Even if I'm doing that and they're fooling me, God is pleased with what I'm doing, and he knows all of that. I don't have to worry about that. And it's supernatural.
Noelle: Absolutely, yeah.
Janet: What about with others after I've been hurt? What's the temptation after you've been hurt in how you relate to other people?
Noelle: Right. So for me, I would say after I've been hurt, then I just wanna close myself off and kind of not really trust anyone at any time.
Janet: Yes.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: That seems wiser.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: Yes. Yeah. We'll say things like, "I won't put myself in a position to be hurt like that again."
Noelle: Right.
Janet: " I've learned."
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: As if that's a step of spiritual growth.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: I've learned-
Noelle: Yeah ...
Janet: how to do that. I've learned not to trust bosses. I've learned not to trust authorities. I've learned not to trust pastors-
Noelle: Yeah ...
Janet: anymore. If I'm saying everyone's out for themselves, and I'm not naive anymore, I'm wise. That's a log in your eye, and you think you're wise.
Noelle: It is.
Janet: What about trust and verify? That's my motto.
Noelle: Yeah. Yeah, I've heard that.
Janet: Yeah, and I have to think sometimes we're just saying we're gonna be wise. I'm not just gonna take you at your word. then I would say, "I understand It's just a phrase, but I don't trust, and maybe that was right."
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: So I verify.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: But if I've grown to trust, I don't need to verify. So trust and verify doesn't really go together. What we're really saying is, "I don't really trust."
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: I will verify. I know what really happens among these leaders. It's all political.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: So nothing to do with loving God.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: Because I've seen that.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: I'm not gonna be gullible anymore. I'll just keep my distance. I'm gonna decide for myself now. I don't follow people.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: Do you hear the cynicism? And we call ourselves wise.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: So we have to think about the heart behind it. You are now aware that some in leadership are gonna let you down and betray you. Yes, that is true. Maybe you really were naive before, and now you know better.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: What now? What is God up to? Maybe surfacing that I had put ultimate trust in a person or institution. If they say they love God, I 100% believe anything they say all the time, instead of ultimate trust in God. So now with my heart growing in trusting God, what would that look like?
Janet: Well, I don't have ultimate trust in my authorities, but I do trust the God who put them there. I trust the God over my authorities. If God tells me to be in joyful submission, I can do that, but not because I have a guarantee that my authority will always be trustworthy, but because God is.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: I can trust that operating as God says to operate will be best for me, and being vulnerable to hurt is part of that.
Janet: Jesus was vulnerable to hurt.
Noelle: Yeah
Janet: In that, yes, I will trust God over my authorities, and when I look at my authorities, do I have information that shows they're not trustworthy? Okay. I need to handle that in a way that honors God. I don't say, "No, no, no." I don't say anything. They're my authorities. No. I communicate it. I humbly confront it. I don't ignore it. Nobody's saying to do that.
Noelle: And that could be applied to situations of trust or lack of trust outside of authority as well.
Janet: That's true.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: That's true.
Noelle: Like, we're using the example of authority here, but I just wanted to clarify for the listener that it could be other trusting-
Janet: Anyone.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: It's just when we're in authority, there's that added, "I'm supposed to stay under." Right. And that's a vulnerable place, and so everything's trying to get out. So like, no, if I see evidence that any of my authorities, whether that's, I'm a wife, it's my husband, whether that's my boss, whether it's my church leader-
Janet: I see untrustworthiness, I need to communicate that. I don't ignore it. And if when I do that, it is verified that there is sin and untrustworthiness, and there's not a willingness to repent, here's the thing. Outside of my marriage, which we'll talk, that you can even get there then too, sad to say, I'm not obligated to stay under that authority.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: It might be the most loving, wise thing I can do is to move.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: I'm gonna have a different boss if my boss is untrustworthy and unwilling to change.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: If my church leaders are untrustworthy and unwilling to change, you can change churches.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: If my husband is untrustworthy and unwilling to change, I need the help of my pastors.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: all about that is painful. We could do a whole thing on that. But it may end with the most wise and loving thing to do is to not be married. there's a whole lot before that-
Noelle: Right
Janet: ... but boy, can that happen, and nobody would say that that's easy.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: But do I have information? but if I don't, I can't say, "And I still just assume the worst."
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: That's where I have to go, "It is a risk, but I don't have any reason right now." Do I lack all the knowledge I'd like to have when it comes to my authorities? Frequently. Am I suspicious now because I've been betrayed and I've been hurt, and now I want, again, all the information? Like the heart issue of I have to know it all- and I'll decide. So I don't have evidence that my church leaders are untrustworthy, but because of my past, I need to know everything behind every decision, and until I have that knowledge, I will not trust their decisions.
Noelle: Yeah. That's tricky.
Janet: It is, 'cause what's the heart behind that? I trust my ways more than God's ways, because God tells me how to be under authority.
Janet: My goal, again, cannot be to ensure I'm not hurt again. God's goal is that I represent him in any situation he puts me in. So I'm under leaders. I don't know that they're doing anything ungodly, but I fear it, so I pray for them, and if anything surfaces that is ungodly, I need to deal with it.
Noelle: Right.
Noelle: So
Janet: when I hear of a counseling situation, I'm gonna wanna know everything to ensure that what the leaders did in that situation was right. Well, it's probably not gonna be appropriate or loving for me to know all that.
Noelle: Sure.
Janet: But I can pray, I can trust God, deal with what I do know. If I have information that doesn't seem godly, I need to deal with that, and I rest in God because I trust Him. Again, we're back to that's the foundation. I've gotta trust God.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: And even with authorities, I'm gonna allow opportunities to build trust. If someone in authority's betrayed my trust, I give opportunities to rightly rebuild it. Or what's more common, it might not be these specific people who lost my trust-
Noelle: Yeah ...
Janet: but others-
Noelle: Exactly
Janet: ... in similar positions. So I'm not gonna protect myself beyond what God's wisdom dictates, but I'll entrust myself to God, and I'm gonna encourage opportunities to develop and deepen an appropriate trust.
Noelle: Absolutely.
Janet: But I just wanna end with even why is it so important? Why can't we just say, "I'm not a trusting person"?
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: Well, I hope it's obvious trust in God is foundational to all of your life.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: And it's commanded, so you wanna talk about it's important.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: All over scripture, it's just commanded. And I'm only gonna grow in degrees of trusting in others wisely because I have an anchor in the character of God. Trust of God isn't just important, it's essential. I can't even be saved without trusting God, right?
Noelle: Right.
Janet: There has to be a level of trusting God.
Noelle: Absolutely, and then you can grow in that-
Janet: Yes
Noelle: throughout.
Janet: But there has to be something-
Noelle: Right
Janet: ... or I wouldn't have gotten saved. Far and away, this is my primary focus. We want our primary focus to be on the other people. It has to be on that. The more we meditate on who God is, what He's done, my reasons to trust only grow.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: I love this. I looked at... I actually enjoy the website Got Questions.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: I don't know if you've ever been there.
Noelle: I have, yes.
Janet: They actually have... It's usually pretty sound stuff.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: So I read this from them. "Even though others will fail us at times, and we ourselves are not always trustworthy, we can and should still trust people to varying degrees. It's precisely because we know that God will never fail us that we can trust others. Our ultimate security is in Him, so we're free to trust others and experience the joy it brings."
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: I think that was very well said.
Noelle: Yeah, I think that's-
Janet: I'm like-
Noelle: ... a great summary.
Janet: Yeah. So trust in God. What about why is it important to trust others? We're gonna trust in varying degrees. I appreciated that Got Questions said it that way. Another way of saying we trust to the degree that they're trustworthy.
Noelle: Exactly.
Janet: But think about the level of trust implied in these verses that are in scripture. Galatians 6:2, "Bear one another's burdens, and fulfill the law of Christ."
Janet: Hebrews 10:24, "Let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works." James 5:16, "Confess your sins to one another and pray for one another that you may be healed." Romans 12:15, "Rejoice with those who rejoice. Weep with those who weep." And as we've said, Proverbs 31:11, "The heart of her husband trusts in her, and he'll have no lack of gain."
Janet: Being part of the body of Christ involves levels of trust. And now at least we should have a format for how to think about that wisely. And it's a good reminder to us to be growing in our own trustworthiness-
Noelle: Absolutely
Janet: ... first. So in summary, deepen our trust in God in all ways for all things. That is where my focus should be.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: Out of that, a result of that, we're gonna live the way God tells us to live because I trust Him and His ways. So I'm gonna love everyone, and I'm gonna encourage their righteousness. I'm gonna believe the power of the gospel to transform lives. I'm not gonna make it my goal to prevent future betrayal, but I'll anchor myself in God's love and trustworthiness.
Janet: And out of that, I'll wisely risk trusting those who've been trustworthy. And I'm gonna rejoice that in the midst of all of us, because God is 100% trustworthy, we're safe, we're secure, and we're now free to love others fully and then trust where it's wise and loving.
Noelle: Yeah. Praise the Lord.
To keep from missing any future episodes, please sign up for our newsletter on our webpage faithlafayette.org/JJP From there you can also subscribe to this podcast on Apple, Google, or Spotify. You can also visit us on our Facebook page or Instagram at Joyful Journey Podcast. If you have questions or comments for us, you can email us at joyfuljourneyquestions@outlook.com. Joyful Journey Podcast is a ministry of Faith Bible Seminary. All proceeds go to offset costs of this podcast and toward scholarships for women to receive their MABC through Faith Bible Seminary.
Host Janet and her husband, Brent, also speak at a variety of conferences as a way to raise money for the seminary. If you want to look at what they offer or book them for a conference, go to their website.
