Resentment - with Dr. Jones
Podcasts
Forgiveness Series - Milton Vincent
Books/Booklet
Freedom from Resentment - Robert Jones
How to Overcome Evil - Jay Adams
Websites
Biblical Counseling Training Conference
Transcript:
Jocelyn: I don't just need to feel better. I need the truth. And ultimately that will make me better.
Janet: I just want to make it as totally simple as possible for ladies to see that the Bible is really applicable to their everyday life.
Jocelyn: When they understand theology, the application flows out of it quickly with joy.
Janet: It is a journey, but even the journey itself is joyful when I'm doing it, holding the hand of my savior and trusting him all along the way. This is the joyful journey podcast, a podcast to inspire and equip women to passionately pursue beautiful biblical truth on their journey as women of God. When you choose truth, you're choosing joy.
Janet: All right. Welcome back, Joyful Journey listeners. This is Janet once again, and I'm here with a returning special guest, Dr. Robert Jones. He was with us earlier and we discussed anger, what it is and how to work through it, and I highly recommend that episode. We'll have that linked in the show notes, but I've asked him to come back and talk to us about the subject of bitterness or resentment. So before we get started, okay, Dr. Jones, I thought I would at least have you tell us a little bit about who you are and how you ended up. He's written a really good booklet that we will also link in the show notes called, Freedom from Resentment and what made you decide to write that and just a little bit about who you are.
Robert: Who I am is I teach at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky. I've been there for about 10 years there. And prior to that I was at Southeastern Seminary. Prior to that, I was a pastor in West Virginia, married to my wife Lauren for 42 years now.
Janet: Oh, that's wonderful.
Robert: And two adult sons and five granddaughters. Four born, and by the time the podcast comes out that fifth one should be born. And yeah. So I just love the ministry that the Lord has given me. Why I wrote this and how this came about? Everything I've really ever written in terms of publication, I think Janet is coming out from pastoral counseling ministry experience and working with particularly married couples who come to the place where their anger has just settled down and we'll talk about the definitions maybe of bitterness and anger and resentment and as well as working with adults with parents and in-law issues that seems to be a place where resentment often occurs there.
Janet: Yeah. Yeah. And I appreciate you saying that we'll talk about definitions 'cause that is something we talk about on the podcast a lot is define your terms. And I think if there are many people who might say, oh, bitterness, resentment, that's not me until maybe you define it and then we may recognize. I think it's a more common problem than we like to admit.
Robert: I think in a lot of areas of our struggles with the problems of sin, we're gonna be reluctant to sometimes own things. I am using bitterness and resentment synonymously. I think they're gonna be pretty similar. One could say bitterness sounds a little more harsh, but I think we're talking about the same thing. But to distinguish it, I think in my mind, from anger.
Janet: Yeah.
Robert: I see anger as much more of an episode, an episodic kind of thing, where you do something, you say something and I'm mad at you for what you did or say. And you do that repeatedly. And there comes a place where that anger becomes almost a settled anger against you and now it's bitterness. Which means there's nothing that you can ever do right once I'm bitter at you. Every effort you make to do something nice, to even, to repent, I'm gonna be suspicious and suspect of your repentance. You're just doing this to make me feel better or something like that, but you really don't mean it and so it becomes a whole attitude against someone.
Janet: And I think that's really helpful because as you were describing, I'm thinking, yeah there are situations that make me angry and could it be righteous? Usually not. I get that. But then the difference of now it's not the situation, it's just you. Anything you say or do I interpret through the grid that's already in my mind about you. And if that's where I am with any individual that's what you're calling bitterness and resentment.
Robert: Yeah, I think so. And I can then justify pulling away from you, not trying to serve you, not trying to work on the relationship at all because of my bitterness against you.
Janet: But I don't call it that. I say it's because of you.
Robert: That's right. Yes.
Janet: Are there, you mentioned in-law/marriage, is that, are those the most common relationships where you think you see that kind of resentment?
Robert: I would say they're the most common where I see it in the mini book that we're referencing here. I do use a case study of a man who was fired from his job.
Janet: Yeah.
Robert: He felt unfairly and has just retained bitterness. The thing about those situations is that you don't necessarily have any ongoing relationship once your job is terminated.
Janet: You might be bitter, but it's not getting poked all the time.
Robert: That's right. And it'll fade over time because it's not being poked. But when you have a marital situation or in-laws, these are relationships that are just gonna continue unless it leads to the divorce. That's what we're trying to avoid.
Janet: Good. So would you almost say that bitterness, and after reading your booklet, I was like, okay and this may not be fair, and it may be too simplistic. Would you say bitterness and resentment is almost the opposite of having a forgiving spirit?
Robert: Yes, I think you're right on that.
Janet: Okay. Because as I was reading it, I'm like, okay, it seems if I don't forgive, I'm almost setting myself up to be bitter. Like these are my choices.
Robert: Yeah. I think so. We always want to be thinking when we think biblically about helping people, we want to think, historically we've always thinking biblical counseling put off and put on. And so this bitterness and the resentment, the antidote for that is like in Ephesians 4, it's be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving one another, just as in Christ, God forgave you. So prior, in verse 32, the call to forgive follows verse 31, get rid of all bitterness, wrath, and all those words.
Janet: So that was the put off and the put on.
Robert: That's the put off very clearly, yes. Right there in the passage. I think.
Janet: So that's interesting. So I can also think about in my own life, are there people I'm struggling to forgive? And if so, I have to consider, am I becoming bitter and resentful? Because I wanna tell myself I'm not a bitter person. I'm not resentful. I just don't forgive them.
Robert: Yes.
Janet: And I don't know that's going to be accurate.
Robert: No, I think you're right. I think if you find you have a relationship with someone that you are unable to forgive for various things, you should ask the question, is this not just an episodic anger incident, but am I having a pattern of hostility, enmity against this person?
Janet: Yeah.
Robert: That would be a kind of bitterness.
Janet: And God has answers for bitterness so we don't have to be afraid of that, but we won't be able to repent of it or even get free of it if we can't see it.
Robert: And hopefully we have a friend in our life, we have a brother or sister in Christ who can see the way you treat your spouse or the way you talk about your mother-in-law, your father-in-law, usually mother-in-law more often than that. It just sounds to me like you sound like very bitter here. Hopefully we have friends who can at least ask that question and give their impression. It seems to me you're bitter. What do you think?
Janet: Yeah.
Robert: Yeah.
Janet: And I had a friend that, and I've had several women i've gotten the privilege to help, and I was helping a friend years ago and you can hear it like you were saying, like she couldn't, but it was an issue with the church. Something had happened and so it was basically a bitterness against the church. And as we were talking, in her mind, she saw it as something totally different, but it was evident to me. And so I finally said just that to her 'cause I love her. She just couldn't see it. And I said, I think you're really bitter and she's I'm not a bitter person. I said, I know that you think that, but it's coloring everything. 'Cause as we talk about it. It doesn't matter what is said or done, when you walk in the church building, you're interpreting everything through something in you before you walk in and it was so to hear you say that's, that is part of what bitterness does. Nothing could happen at the church at that moment that would've satisfied her.
Robert: And I might wanna gently be able to say to her, I'm not saying you're a bitter person in that you have, all your relationships are marked with bitterness.
Janet: Totally.
Robert: But in this particular situation, it sounds to me that you are very resentful and bitter and the church in this case, as you're talking about, Janet, can't do anything right now.
Janet: Yeah.
Robert: Yeah.
Janet: And to her credit, she was, she's very sweet, and she learned, and we had a great, it was like what? Learning where it started 'cause she didn't even realize it. Okay, let's peel back, where did this start? Is there an unresolved problem that we just never dealt with? And she was a sweetheart about it, but it was as you were describing them, I'm like, that's exactly what it was. She, no matter what they did and she couldn't see it, but we sometimes need other people to help us in those areas.
Robert: I think my wife and I see this in-law relationships counseling couples where one of the parents, or in-law parent slash one of them is just holds this attitude against the often against the wife. The wife/mother-in-law relationship.
Janet: Yes.
Robert: Is usually the one that's the hardest. And yeah, we see resentment going from the parent or from the adult son or daughter.
Janet: Yeah.
Robert: Yeah.
Janet: And now the point is there are answers.
Robert: Amen.
Janet: And so there's the title of your book, Freedom from Resentment. So in your mini book you talk about six different ways that the Gospel speaks to that. I wondered if you'd just be able to walk us through some of those because I think if there are any people listening that are honest enough to say, I may be struggling with some of that myself. The goal is not to make this harder for them. The goal is for them to realize there's hope.
Robert: Yeah. And I appreciate what you just said. It does begin with a recognition. I have a problem here.
Janet: Yeah.
Robert: There has to be some admission there. Yeah. So there are six gospel truths that we summarize there. The first one is by far the most important probably of them all and that is the enormity of God's love displayed in the cross. So if we become bitter, we've forgotten that we have this massive sin debt that God and Jesus has forgiven us. That's the starting place. It's Matthew 18's Parable of the Man who was forgiven a multimillion, yay, a billion dollar debt. Exaggerated figures that our Lord uses intentionally making a point. And he has been forgiven by the master, the king, and he goes out and tries to exact a smaller debt from someone else and the king/the master in this story in Matthew 18, it's Matthew 18:21-35. He hears about this and comes back and confronts the man who was forgiven this multimillion dollar debt. And how could I not be forgiving towards other people?
Janet: Yeah.
Robert: When I've been forgiven this massive debt.
Janet: And I think it's, that's so obviously important because the temptation is to keep it all horizontal. I can only forgive you if I've done worse things to you or to another human. So if I can say, I've never been unfaithful to you.
Robert: Yeah.
Janet: And you were unfaithful. Now, I'm almost justified in being resentful because you're worse than me in my mind, but when I compare it to the Cross and so I think you're right, we have to start vertically and we don't typically do that.
Robert: So if I have a multimillion dollar debt against God, and let's say in the story He talks about, Jesus talks about someone who has a hundred days of wages. That's the debt. If we compute that into our culture, maybe we're talking about $6,000, $8,000. That's a significant thing.
Janet: Yeah. That's not nothing.
Robert: It's not nothing. And you've sinned against me and it hurt. But when I start comparing my contribution, my sin against God. So let's say in our relationship that you have sinned against me, $6,000 to $8,000, I might say something like, okay, I'm gonna admit I'm not perfect after all. I probably didn't handle it as well as I could. I owe you $500. As long as you're thinking on this horizontal level. I remember in class I had the privilege of studying under David Powlison at Westminster, and he used the seesaw, like the teeter-totter illustration there. And always remind ourselves, you don't sit across from the fat kid 'cause you know you're gonna be up in the, your hiney's gonna hurt. My mom would call it my hiney would hurt. And you don't sit across from the skinny kid 'cause then you know you're gonna be on the ground the whole time. For things to balance. So as I look at a horizontal only, yeah, you've sin against me more than I've sinned against you.
Janet: Yeah. You owe me.
Robert: So why should I? Do the math.
Janet: Yes.
Robert: Unless and until we see the sin debt that God has forgiven us, and so suddenly the teeter-totter gets crashes a different way when we see the huge sin debt that God has forgiven us. I've always found that very helpful.
Janet: Yes. Yes and it isn't natural for us to do that. So it is important that we have to intentionally make ourselves remember the cross. 'Cause we want to justify ourselves.
Robert: So here's a key principle, it's actually not in the mini book, I don't think, but it's one that I speak on a lot and teach. Here's a key sentence of takeaway listeners, if you get nothing else from me tonight, okay.
Janet: Here it is.
Robert: It's this. No one has ever sinned against you as much as you have sinned against God. And if you start thinking in terms of that perspective, you realize you have a mountain of sin dead against God. And in Jesus Christ, He's come and forgiven that all.
Janet: Yes.
Robert: And now how does He want you to look at that other person? You ought to be filled with mercy. That's the point of Matthew 18.
Janet: Yes.
Robert: I found so helpful.
Janet: Yes. Good. And so that's the first one, what is the second gospel?
Robert: Yeah. And the second, the next two or three, are parallel to one another. They're similar. The second is our need for God's forgiveness. If we become bitter, we're declaring that we don't need God's forgiveness. And here I'm simply referencing those places where our Lord Jesus had a kind of conditional language here. If you forgive men, who when they sin against you, your Heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins. Matthew 6 there.
Janet: That's uncomfortable.
Robert: It better be, right?
Janet: True.
Robert: It should be. I hope it's uncomfortable for all of us. To fathom the thought that God might not forgive me. Now, in fairness and I mentioned this briefly in the mini book. There are two ways Bible scholars, Evangelicals, view this 'cause we're not believing work salvation. So either we're gonna say this means that God will have disappointment in us, or it could mean that we are not truly forgiven people, ourselves. We're not true Christians because true Christians will have a forgiving spirit.
Janet: Yeah.
Robert: Either those two ways, but I will say to you, I don't want either of those to be true.
Janet: It doesn't really matter which one it is.
Robert: It doesn't matter at the end of the day, and I don't wanna get hung up on that. You can study it and you ought to study the scriptures in this area, and you might come up with a different view, but solid scholars on both sides are gonna come up with different answers. But for me, I don't want either of those to be true.
Janet: Yeah. Yeah. And so what's the third one?
Robert: Yeah. And the third one then is gonna be very similar to that second one there. And that's our need for God's mercy. If we become bitter, we're declaring we don't need God's mercy. So it's parallel, as I said to forgiveness. But here that verse James 2:13. James 2:13, Judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Oh, so Janet, let me give you a choice now. Would you like to face judgment with mercy, sister, or without mercy?
Janet: I don't even have to think about that very long. I would like a lot of mercy, please.
Robert: Okay, then if so, then James tells you what you need to do and be.
Janet: Yeah.
Robert: You need to be merciful if you want to receive mercy. So again, very parallel to the idea of forgiveness there. Mercy is a huge theme of what godliness looks like in scripture.
Janet: And you're continuing to point us upward because I don't think anybody, even if they're saying, I know that I'm bitter against this individual, nobody is going to say, I don't need God's forgiveness. I don't need God's mercy. And I don't think we connect those. We don't connect the fact that when I am choosing to remain bitter. I understand that we're gonna, I have to learn how to repent and it's a process and all of that. But when I am stubbornly saying no, I don't think I realize that I'm saying I don't need God's forgiveness. I don't need God's mercy. That's pretty serious.
Robert: I think you're making a very important point here because we're not suggesting that you learning to overcome your bitterness is gonna be a quick and easy step. But it does begin with a recognition. Yes, I am neglecting God's promise of forgiveness and mercy. I'm saying, this is not important to me. You really don't mean that. Do you sister or brother?
Janet: Right.
Robert: No, I don't. Good. Let's talk about how God wants you to learn now progressively to handle this resentment that you've built up against this person.
Janet: Yeah. Yeah. And it will take time.
Robert: It will, yeah. And it'll take not just time, but obviously the work of God's spirit through brothers and sisters.
Janet: Yes.
Robert: And since I'm speaking to primarily sisters there, that Godly ladies that you have in your life who can come alongside and help you. And I will tell you as I'm gonna, Janet didn't ask me to say this, I have grown to listening to Joyful Journey, and you can listen to things about forgiveness and stuff that I know, Janet, you, and others have championed here. So thank you.
Janet: Yeah, absolutely. No, we all need it. And as we're talking about this, that's why I just see the connection to forgiveness. It's an area that the Lord has really been helping me to see areas of my life where I am not. I am battling to forgive and the importance of staying that in there and choosing to forgive and if I have to do it again, then I'll do it again. And then just thinking through resentment. The opposite of that is when I don't, and I really appreciate. Talk about the fourth one that you put there 'cause I think this one's so important.
Robert: Yes. Distinguishing God's role and my role. If we become bitter, we are assuming God's role as judge. I mentioned this also in the "Uprooting Anger", but I wanna take a slightly different angle on it right here in this particular mini book here. There's a sense in which when I have bitterness against someone, I am not only one who's created a certain law. I am the law giver. I'm the arresting officer. I've caught you. I am the prosecutor. Or I have a case in my mind built up against you, and then I'm the judge who's going to render the verdict. And I'm also then the bailiff who's gonna take you off to the prison within my soul. I appreciate the late James Kennedy talking about what it means to forgive is to go down into the dungeon of your soul and unleash or release that person from your judgment. But this is James 4 verse 12. There is only one lawgiver and judge, the one who was able to save and destroy, but you, who are you to judge your neighbor? And so when I am holding bitterness, I am playing the role of God.
Janet: Yeah.
Robert: That should scare all of us.
Janet: Yeah. And I appreciated you putting in here that it's not wrong for there to be vengeance, it's just that it's God's to avenge. And I find great hope in that. It's not that you're saying it doesn't really matter and it shouldn't bother you and there is no justice. It's saying there is a God who is gonna take care of all of that so you don't have to.
Robert: There are two commands and a very well-known passage. We talk about vengeance is mind. Do not take revenge. There's two commands. The second command is a positive command. You are commanded to leave room for God's wrath. You are told to let God be God. I remember Ed Welch talking about this let God be angry for you.
Janet: Yes.
Robert: Let God be angry in your place. And you see this in the Romans 12. We have the story of Joseph in Genesis 50 as he learns to. We know Genesis 50 that we're Joseph says, you intended for evil, God intended it for good?
Janet: Right.
Robert: But right before that, he says, don't be afraid to, he says to his brothers, am I in the place of God? And so he recognizes that it's not his role to distribute justice against his brothers, even though they sinned against him seriously. And we don't neglect that. We don't minimize what they did to him. It's a great story. It fits James 4. It fits Romans 12 beautifully.
Janet: I was listening. I don't know if you've heard Milton Vincent's series on forgiveness. He's forgiveness sermons, but when he was talking about this part of God's vengeance. One of the things that, I'm gonna probably butcher it, not say it exactly the way he did, but one of the things he said was it's not basically that you don't have any rights, it's that they've been bought by Jesus. So it's not roll over. It doesn't matter. It's if you hurt me, you have to deal with Him. So that means I don't need to be bitter. I'm now free to be compassionate because I realize if you don't repent, you're going to deal with Him. So I'm sobered by that and I'm protected by that. It's not that I have no rights, it's that they were bought. Jesus holds them, not me. That picture was really helpful to me.
Robert: My father will care for me.
Janet: Yes.
Robert: My father will take care of a vengeance that's needed, and He'll do it in His way. And it might not be the way I would've wanted it done.
Janet: Yes. But it'd be better.
Robert: The little book. It's a short book by Jay Adams, How to Overcome Evil. He's got some really good illustrations in there. He talks about don't be the vigilante. Don't try to take justice into your own hands. Drop your holster. You got the old vigilante in the Western movies. Jay also uses the example of the, if you this way I summarize his illustration, if you value your car, do not park your car in the parking place at work that says reserve for CEO. Okay, park your car not in the place that's God's place.
Robert: Right.
Robert: Let God, he uses another illustration. The old Janet, I dunno how old you are so I don't wanna uhoh get you in trouble old enough on this one. There old, but the old Greyhound bus commercial, you remember the motto of Greyhound leave.
Robert: No,
Robert: leave the driving to us.
Robert: Oh, leave
Robert: the driving to us.
Robert: Yes. Okay.
Robert: I do remember
Robert: that. We'll drive you, you don't have to worry about the driving. Yes. Leave the driving to us. And again, another illustration of learning to let go of your supposed
Robert: yeah.
Robert: To exact justice on someone.
Robert: And if I'm really thinking about that.
Robert: That's sobering and it actually has helped me grow mercy for the other person because even if what they've done against me is wrong, and bad, and really hurts when I realize they're gonna deal with God, like that actually helps me grow mercy. Compassion because if they don't handle it, it's not a matter of, they better handle it because you know who I am.
Robert: It's a matter of they're gonna deal with God.
Robert: Yeah. And there is then even there a kind of a deeper love and care for this person.
Robert: Yes.
Robert: One of the ways I've seen this play out is when a, let's take someone who's been betrayed in adultery. That's an area that I do a lot of constantly in. Yeah.
Robert: And that's so painful.
Robert: It is. It's very hard for that person. What happens though is when their anger and bitterness and resentment against the unrepentant, let's say, yes, the unrepentant unfaithful partner, when it gives way to mercy to, you're gonna have to face God about this. That's a sweet shift. I've seen this.
Robert: Yes. With betrayed wives. And it's beautiful when it happens. It's still a very hard Of course.
Robert: Yes. And to think in, in that they are really displaying the heart of God.
Robert: Yeah.
Robert: And recognizing it doesn't, and we're not saying it didn't hurt her, but that she's able to see something more. And that specific thing, realizing that vengeance is god's has been something the Lord has used to help grow mercy in me.
Robert: Yeah. Amen.
Robert: Yeah.
Robert: Number five.
Janet: Okay, let's do it.
Robert: The dual nature of the offender's sin against you. If we become bitter, we forget that this person is a sinner. Yes, but he is not just a sinner. He is a deceived and enslaved by sin. Sinner. When you look at what scripture teaches about the nature of sin, that Jesus, I'll just quote a few of those passages of scripture.
Robert: Everyone who sins is a slave to sin. Peter talks about it in second, Peter, A man is a slave to whatever has mastered him. Proverbs five, the evil deeds of a wicked man and snare him. And so what you find, what I find here is that we have to look at that person who's sinned against us as not just one who has maliciously or deliberately it doesn't lessen his or her responsibility, but it does remind me that they are deceived.
Robert: They're blinded by their own sin. Yes. And that's leading them to sin against me.
Janet: And if God doesn't open their eyes, they can't see I when. In air in some areas where I've really needed to work on that. Second Timothy two 24, it starts talking about patiently enduring evil. But the phrase that really struck me is when I am gentle with my opponents, they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil after being captured by him.
Janet: And I'm like, okay, so these are people who are. They're not in their right mind. They have not come to their senses. There's the deception, and they're ensnared. They are enslaved. They've been captured, and that has again, helped me. God has used that to help me grow mercy when I see that they are because it it, it doesn't feel like these are enslaved, deceived people.
Janet: It just feels evil.
Robert: Yeah. They seem to be in control of their sinful behavior.
Janet: Yes.
Robert: And yet the pictures we get on scripture, and I love your reference to the second Timothy passage because we have to pray that God
Janet: Yes.
Robert: Would do this
Janet: may, he may perhaps grant them or passage
Robert: and perhaps that's right.
Robert: Yes. We pray that he would.
Janet: Yes.
Robert: One of the amazing verses in scripture that's hit me is the passage in one Corinthians chapter two, where Paul's describing those who crucified Jesus, and he says this about them. None of the rulers of this age understood it. It meaning the gospel wisdom is the context.
Robert: None of the rules of the sage understood it for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. It's their blindness.
Robert: As they crucified Christ. They didn't see the full picture of what they were doing. And this becomes a very important thing in a lot of we're talking about long-term resentment relationships here because we tend to assume that a person who is sinned against us in serious ways.
Robert: Has made a decision to get up that morning. I, in the mini book, I talk about adultery cases here where the woman who's been sinned against by an unfaithful partner might wrongly think that the partner. Just woke up one morning and said, I'm gonna destroy my wife. How am I gonna do it? This'll do me sick.
Robert: Yeah. Oh, I know what I'll do. I'll go have an affair. That's not the way these things work. It's much more of a subtle movement, and it's de he's being deceived and he's being drug by his own desires. I'm sitting across from you at this table here and a car, our sound engineer is here. If I had a goal right now, Janet, I have this goal.
Robert: I gotta get to that room over there. I might knock this microphone over, I might elbow you on my way out the door. Yep. And you're sitting here saying, why did Bob attack me like that? And I'm thinking, I really didn't try to attack you. I tried to get out the door.
Robert: And you're in my way.
Robert: I stepped on you.
Robert: I hit you.
Janet: So it doesn't change that you hurt me, but that's not
Robert: what you were
Janet: thinking
Robert: about. It's That's right. And so we have to recognize that, yes, I did something malicious. I hurt you. I also did that because I wanted what I wanted, when I wanted and we're back to the idols of the heart. Yes. Issues that cause us to do what we want.
Robert: Even it means stepping on other people and that's where we have to fight against the resentment.
Janet: When I was, have worked with women, because it is hard, because, they've been stepped on in that respect greatly, and it feels like it's all about them. And I've had, and so we've worked through being able to say it impacts you greatly, but it's really not about you.
Janet: If there's something else going on in his heart, it's really not about you. It just impacts you greatly.
Robert: Yeah. There, there's gotta be a gentle, and I think this is where friendship and good counselors are gonna build passport and relationship. Yes. Where you can get to the place to say to someone, and this is gonna sound way too harsh, but hopefully you know, my spirit and I think Janet Spirit here today you just can't take this too personally.
Janet: Although it impacts you greatly, it's
Robert: we and we don't wanna minimize that impact. Yes. The danger of what I just said yes. For your listeners is thinking that, we're gonna take this lightly. We're not, we're trying to free you.
Janet: Yes.
Robert: This is for your good, that you realize this isn't just about you.
Janet: It's actually a reflection of his heart.
Robert: It is.
Janet: It's what's going on in him and because of it, it splashed all over you and it hurt you greatly. It's acid that's splashed on you. Yeah. And it hurts, but it's not about you. Meaning I can't fix it. It's not, if only I'd been better. It's not. It's really just what's going on with them.
Janet: And because we're in relationship. It hurts me and I do think there's hope there, but you're right. It's not the first thing we say
Robert: and I have to labor,
Janet: but I think there's hope there.
Robert: I have to work at it sometimes to make sure the person I'm talking to understands that I understand that you've been hurt deeply.
Janet: Yes.
Robert: And for those of you, who are listening today are trying to minister to your friend, you take some of the things we said here and you run with them in an unkind or rough or fast manner, I think you're in danger there. But if you really make it clear. Sister, I understand what you, what happened to you is really hard for you.
Robert: It was wrong. And you have to really persuade them and you may have to remind them periodically. Sure. That's your stance. Yes. You're not defending this man's decision.
Janet: Yeah.
Robert: Or this mother-in-law's decision or whoever that you're dealing
Janet: with. Yeah. I was working with a woman and I get that privilege a lot and he was very wicked.
Janet: And she was not always responding perfectly and but what I didn't want is for her to hear you're the problem. And so I would always start with nothing we talk about here changes. The fact that what he did that was just wicked, that was wrong, and you are not in any way responsible for what he did. Now, what the Lord is bringing out of it.
Janet: He wants to help you even grow. You can. He can't stop you from growing even through this. So we do this. And every week I would say, I'm not saying that we're just, and eventually she said to me, you don't have to say that anymore. I know. And, but I thought until she tells me that I say it every time. 'cause I don't want her to hear.
Robert: That's helpful. I appreciate it. I'm gonna keep that in mind. Yeah. Yeah.
Janet: And I just, and then we talk about it. She was so funny. It was probably week six or seven and she smiled. She goes, you don't have to say that every time. And I said, I was gonna tell you did that because I don't want you to leave here going, she thinks it's like 50 50, like he's doing horrible, wicked things and her responsive battling bitterness.
Janet: We need to talk about that. But she's not responsible for him and we're not in any way trying to minimize his. And yet you can still grow. He can't stop you from growing. And then, but it was just funny 'cause I said it every week because it's. You're, we don't want that. And I know that's what you're saying is you work really hard at not doing that.
Robert: Yeah. And particularly for me as a guy speaking to a wife Yes. Who's been sinned against in that way, I don't wanna I wanna make sure that you understand I'm not defending the man.
Robert: Yep. Yeah.
Janet: Good. So what's the last one?
Robert: Okay, the last one has to do with our own fallibility. If we become bitter, we are forgetting that as sinners, we too are capable of the same sins.
Robert: And the same root sins may already reside within us. It doesn't mean that you have done the same outward action. It does mean that you may have within you some of the same seeds. There. And so as you are living where're, if your your mother-in-law is very critical of you, what are you doing about that criticism?
Robert: You're telling other people about your critical mother-in-law,
Janet: so you're being critical.
Robert: You're doing the same thing. In that sense. Again, I'm not trying to put this on the same par of a very serious thing that's happened, but I am reminding us of passages that remind us in from scripture. That you need to take heed lest you fall that you need to.
Robert: Now my mind is blanking on the yeah, if you think you are a standing firm,
Janet: yes.
Robert: Be careful that you don't fall. One of the ways I want to put it here is how confident are you. That if you were in the exact same situation, this other person was in the same background the same kinds of in issues in your life, the same temptations and provocations, how sure are you that you couldn't do the same thing?
Janet: Yeah.
Robert: Or that you won't do the same thing in the future?
Janet: Yeah, and I've struggled with that. 'cause there are certain sins that my mind says I would never do that like. How could you hurt somebody in that way or hurt, whatever. And I've really, and then I had to really think, okay, Janet, if you think theologically, do you believe in utter depravity or not?
Janet: Do I believe that the Bible teaches utter depravity? Which would mean exactly what you said, if I'm in the same situ, if I don't have the spirit and the help of Jesus. So praise God. I do have the help of Jesus, but I, there's nothing within me that is better than anyone else. And that I, that was hard for me to wrestle through.
Robert: Yeah. I have come to believe that I'm capable of the same kinds of sins that other people do.
Janet: Yes.
Robert: I remember very early in my marriage I remember right where I was standing. We were in a parsonage situation there. I remember being so angry at my wife, Lauren. I grabbed her by the biceps, pushed her up against the corner, and was very angry and yelled at her, squeezing her biceps.
Robert: After that event, I came to realize that the seeds of domestic violence are right there Wow. In this man's heart.
Janet: Yes.
Robert: And it, it scared me rightly here's the good news. Lauren does not remember that.
Janet: What?
Robert: Yeah, I remember it very vividly. So the Lord has protected her mind or something. Wow. I don't know, but that is an example of, there it is.
Robert: It's right there. I could have been the same person. I need to be very careful. You, we come into counseling situations with people who've sinned in serious ways. We have to be of the mindset of not the Pharisee. I thank you, God, that I'm not like other people.
Janet: Yes,
Robert: no. I am more like the person who's sinned against me in a serious way.
Robert: Then I think yes. And I have to own that and recognize my own sinful remnants. Sin can be pretty serious,
Janet: but it doesn't have to lead me to despair. It should lead me to abide close to Jesus. It
Robert: does,
Janet: it leads me to, I need Jesus and I have him. So because I've thought, does that mean I should like never leave my house?
Janet: It's no, it means you need to stay close to Jesus.
Robert: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
Janet: And community. Yeah, that if seeds start to surface, there's people around me who will love me enough to express concern before something can grow
Robert: the importance and power of the local church for us all of us to be part of. And for those you're trying to serve, to connect them to your church or another healthy church?
Janet: Yeah. Yeah. Excellent. And then you just put in the end just some practical strategies for change. Maybe we can at least just read those without all the detail in it. 'cause they need to go buy the booklet.
Robert: Okay. Good. Thanks for the sales pitch there, sister. Appreciate it. Yeah. So just some summary things at the end.
Robert: Strategies, strategy, strategies. Listen to me, strategies. Yeah, some practical strategies here at the end. Review the gospel truths. So one of the things you can do with this mini book, and you can do with other mini books as well, what I have counselees that I work with do with this. I ask them to read one of these each day and look up the verses there and ask yourself, is this an area?
Robert: And as a prayer journal. So a way to review that. Yeah. And just do one a day. You've got six of them here. And if we meet with you in a week from now, that gives you time to work through each of them and pray over those. The second strategy there would be placing yourself under accountability, inviting someone.
Robert: If it's resentment against someone at work, then maybe if you're married, your spouse, if it's if it's your spouse, then a godly brother or sister. Same gender person who can help you, letting your pastor know your small group leader, that kind of thing. The third step would be prayer for that person and ways to demonstrate love.
Robert: And there I just reference Luke chapter six. Do good bless and pray for your enemy. And some practical things there as well.
Janet: I find when there's someone I'm struggling with I know I need to pray for them. And many times it's people who are unrepentant. It is not wrong to pray for someone to repent but I found if that's really all I prayed about, I almost fed my bitterness.
Janet: So I thought I need to pray. In a positive way. And so one of the phrases that I use with people that I'm struggling with is I'm praying that God would grant them the grace to live with joyful, humble integrity before him.
Janet: He knows what needs to happen to get there, but that's what I want for them.
Janet: So I'm praying something good and not just 'cause I learned, I couldn't even just pray that God would bring them to repentance when I was struggling. Not 'cause it's a wrong prayer, but because. I was focusing on
Robert: Yeah. You were fixating on their sin.
Janet: Yes. Yes.
Robert: And what you just illustrated is the dynamic we talked about earlier of a put off, put on strategy.
Robert: We wanna pray for the Lord to help them put off. Yeah. And to put on a vibrant, joyful life that comes from repentance.
Janet: Yeah. Yeah.
Robert: A joyful journey.
Janet: Yeah. Woo-hoo. There's a plug.
Janet: Excellent. People listening to this is just an overview. As Bob mentioned, it's Nope, Dr. Jones on here.
Robert: No. You
Janet: can call me
Robert: Bob.
Janet: Conversation even on here. Okay I didn't know. Okay. Yes. As Bob mentioned, this is weeks and weeks of being patient. So if you're listening to this and it sounds like wow, they just went from thing to thing.
Janet: We're just putting the truths out there. But find someone that can walk this with you and help you. And this booklet, I think gives you the gospel implications and some gospel motivation to do the hard work. Of rid yourself from that kind of resentment. So thank you. Thank you for being willing to be here and share some of this with us.
Janet: And I pray that this will be a blessing to those. Hearing it.
Robert: Thank you for allowing me. May I pray for our listeners?
Janet: Oh, I would love that.
Robert: Yes. I want, I wanna do that. Father, we thank you for the grace you have given us that has forgiven us, has brought us into right relationship with you.
Robert: And I wanna pray for my friends who are gonna listen to this podcast, that our father, you would help them to believe these gospel truths to rest in the righteousness of Christ given to them. And that by your spirit, you would enable them to learn how to fight against the bitterness, through these gospel truths and others that come out from your Bible.
Robert: We pray, father, for your. Grace to continue to enable them to live in ways that will please you by learning how to forgive. So help us this day. We pray in Jesus' name. Amen.
Janet: Amen.
Robert: Amen.
To keep from missing any future episodes, please sign up for our newsletter on our webpage faithlafayette.org/JJP From there you can also subscribe to this podcast on Apple, Google, or Spotify. You can also visit us on our Facebook page or Instagram at Joyful Journey Podcast. If you have questions or comments for us, you can email us at joyfuljourneyquestions@outlook.com. Joyful Journey Podcast is a ministry of Faith Bible Seminary. All proceeds go to offset costs of this podcast and toward scholarships for women to receive their MABC through Faith Bible Seminary.
Host Janet and her husband, Brent, also speak at a variety of conferences as a way to raise money for the seminary. If you want to look at what they offer or book them for a conference, go to their website.
