Sleeplessness and Rest
Can you experience true spiritual rest even when a good night’s sleep feels out of reach?
Janet and Noelle explore the difference between physical sleeplessness and spiritual rest, drawing on a biblical theology of rest developed by Dr. Rob Green of Faith Bible Seminary. They examine what Scripture says about rhythms of work and rest and point listeners toward the soul rest found only in Christ, even in the middle of chronic exhaustion.
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Transcript:
Jocelyn: I don't just need to feel better. I need the truth. And ultimately that will make me better.
Janet: I just want to make it as totally simple as possible for ladies to see that the Bible is really applicable to their everyday life.
Jocelyn: When they understand theology, the application flows out of it quickly with joy.
Janet: It is a journey, but even the journey itself is joyful when I'm doing it, holding the hand of my savior and trusting him all along the way. This is the joyful journey podcast, a podcast to inspire and equip women to passionately pursue beautiful biblical truth on their journey as women of God. When you choose truth, you're choosing joy.
Janet: Alright, welcome back listeners. This is Janet here once again with Noelle.
Noelle: Hi everyone.
Janet: And today Noelle's gonna be talking to us about a subject that is near and dear to her heart, maybe more so than she wishes, right?
Noelle: Yeah. I don't know if dear is the right adjective. Near, Yes.
Janet: So what are you gonna talk to us about?
Noelle: Alright, so you probably saw that the title of this episode is Sleeplessness and Rest, which I realize could cover a lot if we don't define our terms, or at least clarify the parameters of the terms.
Janet: Yep.
Noelle: So for today, in this context, we want to talk about rest primarily within the spiritual context.
Noelle: So we'll get to more specifics later on in the conversation, but I'll start right now by saying that in really, really broad terms, we can sleep and still not be at rest spiritually.
Janet: Yes.
Noelle: And also we can struggle with physical sleeplessness and yet still be at rest spiritually.
Janet: Which is hopeful.
Noelle: Yes, absolutely. Our goal is to clarify throughout this conversation what that looks like.
Janet: Okay.
Noelle: Sleeplessness and rest. But I wanna start out by saying that I think this episode could apply to anyone, not just someone that has struggled with sleep, although I have. I was personally interested in learning more about rest because I did, and I do struggle with sleep issues. But I also know people that have no sleep issues at all and yet still struggle to be at rest spiritually. Does that make sense?
Janet: Oh, it sure does. And I think it can give a lot of hope to people who struggle with physical rest to know that even in that season they can be growing in spiritual rest. And for the rest of us who maybe, I say us since menopause, I've joined your ranks, Noelle. It's not my easiest thing to do is to sleep, but even for people who sleep well, I think the hope of learning how to grow in spiritual rest is gonna be really helpful.
Noelle: Yes, hopefully. Alright, so why have an episode about this? How did I get interested in it? Well, for me it actually starts with nightmares. I have had nightmares since I was about five.
Janet: That's crazy.
Noelle: Yeah. Really vivid, incredibly frightening dreams. Ones that will wake me up over and over. And obviously that affects how well I can rest physically. And even if I'm able to sleep, the way that I feel once I wake up.
Janet: Yep.
Noelle: During different seasons of my life, they've been different intensities. But on average, I would say probably three to four nights a week.
Janet: Wow.
Noelle: Throughout my life. On top of that, there's been stretches of months or longer where on a nightly basis, I'm just randomly up for several hours in the middle of the night. And a couple years ago, I actually had the privilege of fostering two little girls. And that meant being up in the middle of the night for extended periods of time.
Janet: Yes, yes.
Noelle: So that's something I'm sure a lot of our, listeners can relate to. And I've definitely not suffered from all of the different sleep issues that people can have, but I do have personal experience specifically with nightmares and then a couple of others that I mentioned.
Janet: And I'm really glad that you've been really just vulnerable enough to share that. I wouldn't have known that. I didn't know that about you, and I'm actually just, when I learned that about you, was just thanking God for how he has allowed you to joyfully minister and flourish, with all of that going on that I'm sure some people know, but a lot of us didn't know. I also think it just was a reminder to me, that people are going through things that we have no idea.
Noelle: Yeah, absolutely.
Janet: You know, we typically think nightmares. That means they've been through something really hard. And they're struggling with that-- either childhood or yesterday or, you know, almost in a car accident or whatever. And so I have these nightmares, so then I'm not surprised. I wanna help somebody work through that.
Janet: But I can't make the assumption that because you weren't in a horrible car accident yesterday, and because you have a family who loves you, that you're not going through things like that.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: So I think it's just a good reminder that we don't know what other people are going through.
Noelle: Or how it's affecting them.
Janet: Yes, yes. Yeah.
Noelle: Absolutely. Yeah. For me, in some ways, especially with the nightmares, sleeplessness has felt like something that's really plagued me without me ever being able to understand why.
Janet: Yeah. And that's hard. You know, we want to at least know, oh, here's why.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: And God doesn't always allow us to have that.
Noelle: Right. And for a long time, I tried everything to fix it.
Janet: I can't even imagine.
Noelle: Yeah. And everyone else tried too. And I know that came from a place of love and care, but name a solution and I've probably tried it.
Janet: Well, it's funny because I know the point of this podcast and inside I'm wanting to go, I wish I could help her. Like, have you tried this?
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: Have you tried? And I know that's not the point.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: But that is what we're drawn to wanna do.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: Yeah.
Noelle: And that's not a bad thing. But anyway over the past few years I've started to kind of accept it a little bit more just because it's something that's not gone away, you know?
Janet: Yes.
Noelle: I said it started when I was five. Obviously that's when I remember, and I'm 35, so it's been 30 years. So, I'm just guessing it'll probably be a lifelong issue, but we don't know that.
Janet: Right. But for now it is.
Noelle: Yeah. But then so yeah, like I said, a couple years ago, I just kind of started to accept it more, but without necessarily digging too deep into that.
Noelle: And then one day, about a year ago, I heard a lecture in the MABC program that genuinely changed my life. So, I wanna share that with you today. So I've taken a few classes through the MABC program at Faith Bible Seminary, and one of the ones that I've taken so far was taught by Dr. Rob Green, who's also my pastor. And your pastor?
Janet: Yes. And mine too.
Noelle: Yes. And he was actually illustrating how to develop a biblical theology. And the topic that he chose was rest. So what's funny about it was the whole point of his lecture was to teach me and the rest of the class the skill of developing biblical theology.
Janet: Yeah.
Noelle: But what stuck with me was the actual biblical theology of rest. And obviously I loved learning that skill.
Janet: Sure.
Noelle: But the lecture just, oh my goodness, I've gone back to those notes and talked about that dozens and dozens of times. So a lot of what I'm going to share today comes directly from that lecture. And I did talk to him and asked if I could use his material, and he said, oh yeah, use it. Don't even quote me. So. What?
Janet: Oops.
Noelle: Here I am quoting him and using it. And then some of it is just also developed outta my own walk and my own heart struggles over the past year.
Janet: Yeah.
Noelle: But before we dig in, let me ask you something, Janet. What do you usually hear when people talk about insomnia or sleeplessness?
Janet: Well, what I've already told you, my first thought is. Has she tried this? Is there, have you done this? Are you having too much caffeine? Are you getting enough physical exercise to where your body is tired? Is there a medicine, herbal tea, sleep routines?
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: And all of those things really are helpful. I mean, as a counselor, we talk about that stuff. God created our bodies to need sleep, and it's totally appropriate to look for ways to get our brains and our bodies the physical rest that they need.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: So I do all of those things. But I know my sleep.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: Since menopause is not what it ought to be. But I will say this, I do sleep and there are day, there are mornings I wake up and go, I don't even think I slept last night. And Brent will go, yeah, you did. I'm like, oh, was I snoring, yeah, I could you, you were asleep. So I'm obviously getting more than I think, and I seek some of the things I've mentioned. I need to try to steward my body well. But typically, I think a lot of times that's all we talk about.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: So it's a problem to be solved and if we can't solve it, it leaves you with a problem.
Noelle: Right. Yeah. So when we think or talk about people's problems with physical rest or insomnia or nightmares, we tend to jump straight towards that solution.
Janet: Yep.
Noelle: Or, causes or
Janet: Yep.
Noelle: Diagnoses. I've had so many people try to help me fix it.
Janet: Yep.
Noelle: And like you said, we shouldn't minimize the true need for sleep.
Janet: Right.
Noelle: I'm sure you've counseled people that you've said, okay, before we can handle this other issue, you have to start sleeping.
Janet: I mean, it's so true. 'Cause we're not even rational. Like we were not designed to function. That's why I'm like, look, with the Lord, the grace. For whatever amount of sleep you're getting,
Noelle: right.
Janet: You're actually a very rational person.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: But I have literally said just in the last month,I know you're wanting to grow and I know that, and I believe that, but we have to figure out how to get you some amount of sleep. So I get that.
Noelle: Yeah. Physical sleep should be a priority.
Janet: Yes.
Noelle: Also, I do wanna acknowledge that my story is mine. So what I shared about the nightmares and your story is yours, what you shared about menopause. I can only imagine there's many different reasons
Janet: Yes.
Noelle: Why people would struggle with sleep. And some people struggle much more deeply than you and I have.
Janet: That's right.
Noelle: And so I don't wanna minimize that pain and hardship as we talk about spiritual rest.
Janet: Right.
Noelle: And I also wanna be really clear, I am not a doctor.
Janet: Yeah.
Noelle: Surprise. I'm not even a licensed counselor. You are that
Janet: sort of, not really licensed, but whatever.
Noelle: Well, certified?
Janet: There you go. I'm certifiable and certified. Yes.
Noelle: Anyway I'm certainly not trying to give anyone a cure.
Janet: Right.
Noelle: And we do strongly urge you to prioritize getting physical rest. But we also want to simultaneously help you consider the difference between physical rest and spiritual rest.
Janet: Yeah.
Noelle: And knowing that even when we can't find a solution for physical rest or maybe a permanent solution, I should say, we can look at, spiritual rest and be growing.
Janet: We can be growing.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: To have more and more spiritual rest, even in the midst of that. Yeah.
Noelle: Right. So for me, with all of my sleep struggles, I haven't found a solution.
Janet: Right.
Noelle: And. That's a bummer, but clearly I am sleeping enough to function.
Janet: Yes.
Noelle: I mean, I'm a teacher and I have a lot of different things going on in my life, and I do those things. So clearly I'm okay, you know, and that's a blessing.
Noelle: And I wish I didn't have to deal with the nightmares. I wish I didn't have to lay awake in the middle of the night. But I am grateful for the physical rest that I do get, and it is enough to sustain me. It's easy to despair when all I do is focus on possible solutions.
Janet: Yes.
Noelle: And so I try to not just only focus on those, if that makes sense.
Janet: That's right.
Noelle: What's been helpful for me is this Biblical Theology of Rest lecture. And so let's get back to that. Because I want to offer hope, Janet, well, it's not me offering hope, but, you know, I wanna talk with the listeners about that hope, hope grounded in real, powerful truth about spiritual rest. And that these things have impacted me deeply as I've listened to Pastor Rob and studied and grown myself. Does that make sense?
Janet: Oh, absolutely it does, and I love that the hope isn't, if you try hard enough, there'll be a cure for your sleeplessness. So yes, talk to your doctor. Seek ways to get appropriate rest. Look for stewardship because we're told to be stewards. We're not told to fix everything,
Noelle: right.
Janet: We're just told to steward and we should do that. But regardless of the outcome of all that, or maybe in the middle of it when you have no idea what the outcome's going to be, there is great hope.
Noelle: Right. Absolutely. Alright, let's dig in. So one of the first things that I learned that scripture clearly lays out about the rest is the idea that you do have a need to physically cease from striving from work. And God commands one day off in seven and Genesis and Exodus both have commands in that regard.
Janet: Yes.
Noelle: And we're also reminded not to worship our work in Ecclesiastes. And so there is that idea in scripture and that command in scripture that we're not meant to go 24 7.
Janet: Yes.
Noelle: We know that God does value physical rest. So this isn't just us saying, oh, you need rest because you need physical rest to function. But also God shows us that in his word.
Janet: Yeah, he designed us needing rest.
Noelle: Right. One of the things I remember from the lecture is Rob saying that sometimes people are trying to do too much, even when it's all good things.
Janet: Yeah.
Noelle: And then there's not the opportunity to rest spiritually because they're trying to do too much physically.
Janet: Yes. Yes. And I think about, you know, we've done a podcast in the past on the Theology of Weakness. And I see that dovetailing here because when I don't acknowledge my weaknesses or my limitations, I tend to try to do more than I was designed to do.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: And that can be so many things. That can be a lack of trust in God. I have to do it. If I don't do it, like nothing's gonna happen. Or that can be, here's what gives me worth. I do all the things. Or I just feel the weight of if I don't do it, you know, or I live by my accomplishments and that's where I find my value. And there, it could be for so many different reasons, but I love that God designed us with a rhythm, that includes a day where we don't work.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: And it forces us to have to come to grips with what's compelling me to be uncomfortable with that.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: You know? And what it does is surface my need to be dependent on him.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: And my need to acknowledge, I have to rest and if the Lord doesn't keep working, what will happen? But the Lord is gonna take care of it.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: So, so good.
Noelle: Yeah, absolutely. And then at the same time, on the opposite side of the spectrum, scripture also makes it clear that needing rest cannot become an excuse for laziness either.
Janet: Yes.
Noelle: So there's that tension there. We have to be careful to not overwork, but also God doesn't want us doing nothing, right? And so we can't just say, well, God values us resting, so I'm not gonna do anything ever after 5:00 PM and I'm just going to scroll on my phone and watch a show.
Janet: Because I need to rest.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: And you know what? I think that it's really hard because depending on what your natural, I'll use the word idolatry tends to look like.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: Like, I know that I tend to be a lazy person. It surprises people because I'm busy. But those go together well at times.
Noelle: Sure.
Janet: I know I tend to be lazy. So for someone like me to think about rest, it's, am I giving into my flesh? Or am I acknowledging my limitations?
Noelle: Right.
Janet: So you're right. I mean, we have to look at both sides of that. There is a tension there.
Noelle: Sure. Yeah, I think I would be on the opposite side. My friend told me once you're really bad at resting. I was like, wait. Hmm. That, yeah, that's a thing to think about for sure.
Janet: Yeah.
Noelle: Alright. Another thing that Rob taught us through that lecture that really stood out to me is that resting, when we do rest spiritually on some level, needs to be centered on enjoying what God has created. Or enjoying what he's allowed us to create, which is kind of interesting, a little bit different.
Noelle: So yes, there's the physical rest of your body, which would be your outer man, but then also the rest of the inner man. So we need to find our rest in him by doing one of those things. Enjoying what God has created or enjoying what he's allowed us to create. And then that enjoyment can bring us rest. What are your thoughts about that?
Janet: Wow. Wow. I love that. It makes me think of the term refreshment. Because that's different than just entertainment.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: Entertainment can at times certainly be refreshing to do something, and enjoy a show together with your friends and laugh about it, or whatever. Those things can be.
Janet: But when my soul is refreshed, I'm getting rest for my soul. And it's refreshed by enjoying God, enjoying what he's created, enjoying what he's allowed us to create. And then it is gonna be turning my heart back to him in gratitude. And I love that because the way you define that, it all has to do with God.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: Like scrolling on my phone is not really thinking about God.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: Now could be, yeah. If what I'm looking at, you know? But if it's not drawing my heart to enjoy God, enjoy the people God has made, enjoy the things that God, even if it's just a matter of what I'm doing right now, am I able to smile and say, thank you, God for this.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: Whatever it is.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: You know, and in that way, it's a reminder that he is actually where our souls find rest and he gives us all these things.
Noelle: Right, absolutely. I think another really important piece of this is recognizing that different seasons of life require different loads.
Janet: Yeah.
Noelle: And I'm sure that's true for all of the people listening to this episode. They could probably even think back to times in their life that that would be true.
Janet: Yep.
Noelle: And know that a different load could be coming. So when we talk about stewarding rest well, whether that's physical rest or spiritual rest, we have to acknowledge that what we can carry changes over time.
Janet: Yep. Yep.
Noelle: So, Rob shared with our class four statements that all begin with the words we rest. So I'm gonna read those four statements for us now. The first one was, we rest when we know in our hearts that we did what we could do.
Noelle: The second one is we rest when through greater skill or efficiency, we accept a greater load.
Noelle: And then on the opposite end, number three, we rest when through weakness or suffering, we reduce our load. And number four, we rest best when our eyes are on Jesus rather than on people.
Janet: Wow.
Noelle: Yeah. What stood out to you about those four statements?
Janet: Well, so much. One, rest seems to have a lot more to do with abiding close to Jesus than how much activity I'm involved in.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: But as I am abiding closer to Jesus, so I saw a lot of motivational or motive phrases there. I accept a greater load. How could that be rest? Because I did it because there's greater skill or efficiency. So the motive behind it wasn't. Oh my word. I don't know how I'm gonna do it, but I'll just keep trying to do more.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: It was, I've recognized, I have grown in my skills. I can do more or I know how to do that more efficiently. So now I'm able to take on more and still be at rest. It hits me right now, I'm coming out of a season of real weakness and just recently lost my sister and there's a lot of suffering there, and I've been wrestling with the Lord, what is laziness and what is a reduced capacity because honestly, it's hard to think.
Noelle: Yeah. And you need space and time to grieve.
Janet: And yet what does that mean?
Noelle: Right.
Janet: And so I'm like, okay, Lord, I don't want to resist the fact that through weakness or suffering, I need to reduce my load. I don't want to resist that. I don't want that to become lazy.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: But. You know, when I read my Bible right now, I have it play as well. So that, because I'm like, I'm struggling to focus.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: And it's like, okay, I'm not gonna call that sin, but I get less done.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: But I can be at rest when I know it's because of my own limitations and what's going on. I can temporarily reduce my load and I can be at rest.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: Which means I'm dealing with the idols of people pleasing, you know, all the other things
Noelle: Right.
Janet: That are keeping me from rest. So. I love this.
Noelle: Yeah, I've gone back to this list and just thought through like, oh my goodness. Even in just the past few months, there have been times when I needed to accept a greater load and then reduce the load. So it's not necessarily just a whole, I'm not talking about seasons like Oh,
Janet: years and years.
Noelle: Yeah. Yeah. Toddlers versus teens as kids or, you know, working outside the home, versus not working outside the home. Yeah, absolutely. It could apply to that, but it literally, you know, for you, you're talking about. Last month versus this month.
Janet: That's right.
Noelle: Or whatever.
Janet: That's right. And each day is a little better and a little different.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: Yep.
Noelle: Yeah. Okay. So based on all of that, how do we actually think about biblical rest in practical ways? Because we can't just stay up in the clouds talking about it.
Janet: Right.
Noelle: So. He spent a long time talking through this, and we don't have as much time today as he did for that class, but one place to start that he suggested is by right sizing your work load, which is what we just talked about.
Janet: Yes.
Noelle: So we need to rightsize it. Not everyone can do the same things and not everyone can do the same amount, especially during those different times.
Janet: Yep.
Noelle: But we need to make sure that we're not just filling our schedules too full, even if it's with good things, but then also not being lazy. So that's a practical step that we can take from thinking about the bigger topic, the Biblical theology on rest, A practical step is right size your load, your workload.
Janet: And my first thought is, and the listeners are going, yeah, but I'm not there yet. As far as how practical is that. How do I do that?
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: That takes great wisdom.
Noelle: Oh my goodness, yes.
Janet: Like, am I being lazy or am I living beyond my current limitations and weaknesses? And so for me, it's like I have a process. My brain thinks in processes. And I think, okay, the first thing I'm gonna have to do is make sure I don't have any logs in my eye. Because if I have a log in my eye, the scripture has said I can't see.
Noelle: Sure.
Janet: So how am I gonna have wisdom to know how to right size? I'm gonna have to deal with, am I a people pleaser? I've got to be acknowledging that and dealing with that so that my answer to right sizing is not heavily influenced by that. 'Cause I'm gonna be drawn to going, I can do it. I can do it.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: When it's not wise.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: If I'm all about pleasure and ease, I'm gonna think that's just too much, more often than is true. So I'm gonna have to grow in knowing my own proclivities.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: Like I've gotta be ruthlessly honest with myself, knowing I'm completely accepted and loved by God.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: So I can do that. I also think it's incredibly valuable to have others in my life
Noelle: Right.
Janet: Who know me well. And can help me with this. And I'm thankful Jesus is gracious and patient while we grow in it, but it is a reminder to me of the value of community.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: Someone who knows me well that can say, I know you think you're being lazy, but let's look at this realistically. Let's look at where you are. I think you just need to
Noelle: Right.
Janet: Say no.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: And they know me. They're not trying to help me feed anything. They know me. So my mind was going, how am I gonna do that? But it's exactly right.
Noelle: And I would say something that someone did for me that was super helpful a couple years ago when I was trying to make a couple different decisions about my schedule and what to take on and what to take off was just ask helpful questions. They asked me,
Janet: yes.
Noelle: It wasn't even someone really that knew me super well. I mean, we knew each other, but she just asked me a bunch of really good questions that helped me kind of get to the point where I understood, okay, I need to let go of this. I need to add this. And so I've tried to do that now sometimes with my friends, when they ask me, you know, what do you think about this? I try to think through questions that help them.
Janet: That's excellent.
Noelle: So I don't always do super well, but maybe this will be helpful for other people to think, you know, what questions can I ask to understand motives, understand, you know, more about the situation and
Janet: Yep.
Noelle: It's not necessarily that you have to tell the person what to do.
Janet: Right.
Noelle: Maybe it's just asking questions so that they can figure it out.
Janet: Yep. Yep.
Noelle: Alright. Another really practical step that we can take thinking through patterns of work and rest.
Noelle: So. And by the way, when I say work, I'm not just talking about working at a job for money, I'm not talking about that. It includes, you know, investment into other people, investment into God's people, into serving,
Janet: yes
Noelle: into ministry, into your family. If you have an immediate family that lives with you. God clearly lays out a rhythm for work and rest, and he lays out a rhythm of one rest day per week.
Janet: Yeah.
Noelle: So we need to think about that and we need to take that seriously. And I would say, especially in culture in the US, which I know we have listeners outside of the US, but I would say in culture in the US that rhythm is pretty rejected.
Janet: Right.
Noelle: In general. Well, maybe not entirely because people are pursuing entertainment and things like that too. But I just mean like the work, work, work, work, work for money.
Janet: Right.
Noelle: Is more of the tendency.
Janet: That's right.
Noelle: Right. So what could it look like for us if we do actually pursue a rhythm of one rest day per week?
Janet: Yep. My husband and I recently were talking with a counselor and he recommended a rhythm that 20%, and he didn't say it as one day a week. He, and it's not a biblical rule. I'm not
Noelle: Sure.
Janet: We're not gonna find a 20% thing in the Bible
Noelle: Sure.
Janet: That 20% of your day be life giving.And he said it's not gonna happen every day. And so then, he's like, I think it's wise to then say, how do I make up for that?
Noelle: Right.
Janet: Like not just go. Okay, I just missed that. So it was just something good to think about. Life giving is not the same as entertainment.
Noelle: Sure.
Janet: It's what's refreshing to my soul. So getting time with Jesus. That's life giving.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: And that's important. Reading my Bible, praying, those are life giving. Fellowshipping with loved ones.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: Is life giving. Having coffee with a friend. And that doesn't mean we can't talk about some things that are hard and we help each other and we pray. But it's not, I'm not there as a one way ministry.
Noelle: Sure.
Janet: It's life giving. So, for me, we recognized that was not something we had been prioritizing. And so we've been thinking about that a lot. And for me,
Noelle: We, being you and Brent?
Janet: Oh, sorry. Me and my husband, yes, we've been talking about that and how we're going to intentionally recognize what does that look like for us?
Noelle: That's cool.
Janet: And I'm not ready to say, you know, we don't time it for 20%. That wasn't the point. The point was
Noelle: You don't have a spreadsheet?
Janet: No, we do not have a spreadsheet. That would be so not life giving, but, so we don't have that. But it was good to think about like, how many weeks go by where I think I'd love to just get together with Noelle and talk, but all of these needs are there. And so I wait until there's a week without those needs. That week doesn't happen.
Noelle: Sure.
Janet: And so I have said before, if I don't minister right next to someone, unless they have an issue that I'm helping them with, I don't see them. It's like, huh. So it's not selfish or wrong to have relationships that are just encouraging each other.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: I know that theologically, but my time did not show that. For us, I think one that's definitely life giving, time with our granddaughters. We love that. And seeing Brent with his granddaughters is pretty amazing. So that's been really sweet. So you go, okay, that's life giving.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: For us. When the weather was better, we started going on prayer walks, Brent and I. And I don't know how everybody else does them. What we started doing, 'cause this is how it was described to us, and I was like, oh, we could do that, is start walking away from the house for a certain amount of time, 15, 20 minutes. And as we're walking away, we each talk about how our souls are doing. How's your soul? What's heavy or what's, you know, what's encouraging, what's not? What's hard? Both of us do that. So it's not like we don't talk about the hard. We talk about it all the way out, and then as we turn to start walking back, we just pray.
Janet: And we pray out loud, and we pray for all the things, and we pray for anything else, and we pray for the whole way back.
Noelle: I love that.
Janet: That's life giving.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: And then it got really cold and we haven't been doing it, and I'm like, I don't know. It's not quite the same to go to the basement and walk in a circle. I don't know. It's just not quite the same. Now that I'm not comfortable being outside,
Noelle: walk in a circle.
Janet: Yeah, we're not doing that.
Noelle: Sure, sure. Yeah. Man, there's so many different ways to pursue spiritual rest. And certainly we're not gonna try to tell you that we have all of the answers.
Janet: Oh, we don't.
Noelle: But some ways for me that I really love to get out and enjoy God's creation and be with him. So I just, I love, I love, love, love the outdoors. My friends make fun of me because I just, I like the outdoors so much. So I like kayaking. There's a creek that runs through, the property that's behind my house. And so I,
Janet: which I love that Lord gave you a house where you could just walk right out back and you're in,
Noelle: right
Janet: in nature.
Noelle: Yeah. Yeah. It's amazing. So I walk down to the creek behind my house. I like. We're only a couple of hours from the dunes, so I like driving up to the dunes as often as I can. Hiking down in Turkey Run. For those of you that are,
Janet: do you hike by yourself?
Noelle: Oh, no.
Janet: Okay. I'm like, that doesn't sound safe.
Noelle: Well, I think it would be safe, but I'm an extrovert, so I wanna be with people. Yeah. No, I, I am doing all of these things with people. Well, sometimes I kayak on my own, but. I love camping. Oh my goodness, my soul feels so much rest enjoying God's creation. And usually I am doing those things with people.
Janet: Yeah.
Noelle: And I know I can talk to God anywhere, but when I'm on my own or when I'm with others, I appreciate praying. You know, you and I prayed before the beginning of this podcast.
Janet: Yes.
Noelle: I would love it even more if it were outside.
Janet: Not today.
Noelle: True.
Janet: It's freezing.
Noelle: Yeah. By the time this podcast is recorded, it'll not be freezing or released. Aired, yes. But yeah, it is freezing. It's something like a negative 20 here today. But anyway, there's just, something's really unique and special for me about conversing with God out in the world that he made.So
Janet: I love that.
Noelle: And I also think, like I already mentioned, being with people that love Jesus. Oh my goodness.
Janet: Yes.
Noelle: And I'm not just talking about going to church, although that's certainly awesome, but just doing life together.
Janet: Yeah.
Noelle: Living in those beautiful friendships and investing into each other's lives.
Janet: Yeah.
Noelle: Sometimes that means, you know, saying, Hey, we're just gonna play card games. And sometimes it means going to a friend's house and saying, Hey, let's wash dishes together. You know?
Janet: Yes.
Noelle: So it doesn't have to be, I don't want people to think, well, I can't do that. That doesn't fit. Like there are lots of ways
Janet: Yeah.
Noelle: To make it fit just in your daily rhythms, I've had friends that we try to rest by helping each other with things that we need to get done. Not necessarily like, oh, we're gonna check off the to-do list, but more like, how can we make this an investment into each other instead of just the to-do list.
Janet: Yes.
Noelle: If that makes sense. Like going grocery shopping together at the same time.
Janet: Right.
Noelle: Highly inefficient, but super great at creating spiritual rest.
Janet: Right. And you got your grocery shopping done. Maybe not as efficiently, but it's done.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: Yeah. And I have a friend that she and her mentor would take turns meeting at each other's house and cooking together.
Noelle: Oh, that's fun.
Janet: And so they were getting their cooking done. They'd take half home, whoever was at the other one's house. So they've got dinner that night. And they had that time to talk.
Noelle: Right. Yeah. So there's lots of ways.
Janet: Yeah.
Noelle: Okay. One thing that's a little bit maybe heavier and harder to talk about is willingly resting through confession. So, unconfessed sin can be a barrier to true spiritual rest.
Janet: Yeah.
Noelle: And I'm certainly not trying to say that every time you can't sleep it's because you have unconfessed sin.
Janet: Of course not.
Noelle: But maybe sometimes it is.
Janet: That's right. Well, we see that in the scripture. That the effect it has on us physically when we are not confessing our sin. For sure. So obviously not sleeping has lots of different causes, but a soul that is not at rest can be because they're under conviction.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: -And I think about what a mercy that is from God. Because at least I know for me, if I were able to not confess my sin and rest perfectly fine and have a soul that was at rest, would I confess as quickly?
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: You know, I'm thankful for the lack of rest that comes from holding onto my sin.
Noelle: Yeah, absolutely. And honestly, even when there isn't sin, we also emphasize rest through dependence. So that's huge for me, just in general. Honestly, I kind of hate being dependent. I'm known as a fairly independent person.
Noelle: And I also like my control. I have a control issue. I did a self counsel project on control. But anyway, that's the opposite of rest. That's the point. Dependence helps me be at rest.
Janet: Yeah.
Noelle: Soul rest can only come when I am fully dependent on God.
Janet: Because I'm trusting. I'm trusting the Lord instead of me.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: Because I can't rest if I'm trusting me, I got things to do.
Noelle: Yeah, absolutely.
Janet: Yeah. Yeah.
Noelle: So there's one Psalm or a part of a Psalm that I think is super beautiful in helping us see this thought pattern and that's Psalm 62. So I think let's focus on the first eight verses. Janet, you wanna read Psalm 62:1-8 for us?
Janet: Sure. Truly my soul finds rest in God. My salvation comes from him. Truly, he is my rock and my salvation. He is my fortress. I will never be shaken. How long will you assault me? Would all of you throw me down this leaning wall, this tottering fence? Surely they intend to topple me from my lofty place. They take delight in lies. With their mouths they bless, but in their hearts, they curse. Yes, my soul, find rest in God. My hope comes from him. Truly, he is my rock and my salvation. He is my fortress. I will not be shaken. My salvation and my honor depend on God. He is my mighty rock, my refuge. Trust in him at all times, you people. Pour out your hearts to him for God is our refuge.
Noelle: Yeah. Okay. Psalm 62 is obviously really beautiful. But, how do we read Psalm 62 and not feel like it's just some Christianese bandaid slapped on? Especially like, okay, we're talking about sleeplessness. If someone's been, let's say someone's been sleeping three to four hours for six months, you know?
Janet: Yes.
Noelle: I've been there before.
Janet: Yeah.
Noelle: And I say something to a friend and I'm just, oh my goodness, I'm so exhausted. I only slept four hours again last night. And then they're like, Psalm 62, and well find your rest in God. Trust God.
Janet: Well, that's not appealing. You know? And I think on the other side, because we don't wanna do that. Sometimes I don't wanna encourage my friends to trust God because I'm afraid it'll sound like that.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: So there has to be a way to draw our eyes upward, see the way God is drawing us into a deeper trust and not just be giving platitudes.
Noelle: Absolutely. I think it's really important to listen well.
Janet: Yes.
Noelle: While they're talking.
Janet: Yes.
Noelle: To know the time and the place for the right responses. But yeah, we can't be afraid to listen and then to turn to God, you know?
Janet: Yes.
Noelle: I wanted to include Psalm 62 in this episode today because it impacts how I personally, process and prepare in a proactive way, since I assume that I'll still be struggling with sleeplessness at some level for probably the rest of my life.
Noelle: You know, it's not just about a friend telling me about Psalm 62 afterwards, although that's certainly helpful, but also, how do I think about it?
Janet: Yes.
Noelle: Does that make sense?
Janet: Yes.
Noelle: So maybe one of the most impactful things that Rob talked about in his lecture was this, God never sleeps, but he does still rest. Amen. That,
Janet: wow.
Noelle: That changes everything. There's so much more that could be said, but this truth, oh my goodness. Like let, okay, lemme just say it again. God never sleeps, but he still does rest.
Janet: So why is that such a balm for you?
Noelle: Oh my goodness. Well, I just think I need to sleep in order to do anything.
Janet: Yeah.
Noelle: Which I mean, obviously is true.
Janet: You're trying, we've already talked about that, right? Yes.
Noelle: But my goodness, I can read Psalm 62 or I can look at other truths in scripture and know that I can be at spiritual rest despite the fact that. I mean, Janet, we're recording this on a Thursday, and I've had nightmares every night this week.
Janet: Wow.
Noelle: And there have been times when I'm just like, this week, oh my goodness. Like I'm too tired. Like I forgot about a meeting that I had and I don't forget about meetings, you know?
Janet: Right.
Noelle: And I forgot about a meeting I had, and I know that's because of my lack of sleep. And also I can be at spiritual rest, you know?
Janet: Yeah. All at the same time, which is supernatural.
Noelle: Right. I said at the beginning of this podcast that this lecture that Rob gave really changed my life and I want to reassure the listeners that it's not because I started getting better sleep. So honestly, I think in the past six months I've had less sleep than the rest of my life.
Noelle: And I've had nightmares pretty much every night, and it is exhausting. Like I don't want anyone to think, oh my goodness, no. She has it all together. Like, no, I have told many people recently, like I am so weary of being weary.
Janet: Yes, yes.
Noelle: You know, and that's kind of where I am a lot of the time these days. But. I can still think through these truths about rest and be encouraged, like, how could I not?
Janet: Right.
Noelle: Do you know what I mean? Like there's this both and moment here. I'm exhausted, I'm tired. I'm really tired right now.
Janet: Yes.
Noelle: And I am encouraged when I view spiritual rest the way that God wants me to view it.
Janet: Well, and I just wonder because we know that our savior is a gentle savior, maybe you wouldn't appreciate rest, spiritual rest, be growing in it and even be deepening your heart towards God and his rest the way you are. If you were sleeping more.
Noelle: I know. Yeah.
Janet: You know. Now it doesn't mean you'll never sleep again.
Noelle: Right. Exactly.
Janet: But I think, that gives hope even in the weariness.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: Because as I'm hearing you say that, like that is supernatural. But that is something that's been a priority to you to learn Because of your sleeplessness.
Noelle: Right.
Janet: So again, do we pursue getting better physical rest and sleep? Sure. That's part of stewardship. It's part of acknowledging our weakness and our need. And I love that God's strength is made perfect in our weakness.
Noelle: Yes.
Janet: That God can even use my lack of physical rest to engender, not be a hindrance to, but actually be helping me to have a greater spiritual rest.
Noelle: Yeah. I'm hopeful that at least some of what we've talked about today resonates with those of you who are listening that have struggled with sleep. And I want you to know, for those of you that do, you're not alone.
Janet: Yes.
Noelle: Your struggle, it can be so hard. I know for a long time I didn't talk about my nightmares. 'Cause generally people associate them with. I don't know, children or whatever. It's like, man, get that fixed, Noelle. Like, okay,
Janet: I wish.
Noelle: Yeah. And like we said, you know, sometimes we can do something about sleeplessness and we should do something about it. We might need to confess sin.
Janet: Yes.
Noelle: Or we might need to better depend on the Lord or rightsize our schedules or lighten our load or take more on.
Janet: Yep. Yep. We might need to faithfully pursue a doctor who can continue to help us see if there's a medical reason or a remedy.
Noelle: Right. And sometimes it's not fixable.
Janet: Yep.
Noelle: You know, but the God who created the universe looks at me and looks at you and says, my precious daughter, I have ordained even this. You can trust me so rest in me.
Janet: Yeah. And we know that perfect rest, all encompassing rest, body and soul is coming.
Noelle: Yeah.
Janet: It's coming. We were designed to have perfect rest, physically and spiritually. Our broken bodies are a result of the curse. So I can acknowledge that and know that my God delights to turn, sometimes sin, sometimes suffering on its head and use them for good gospel purposes.
Janet: Even this God can use to deepen my faith, my rest, my living for the next life, my focus and can use this to shine a light on his worthiness as you are humbly seeking him in the midst of it. And I know you're just a shadow and you don't do it perfectly, but you've been an example of that to me and I appreciate that.
Noelle: Well, praise the Lord for that. Yeah. I wanna end with this. Like I've said these past few weeks, this past few months have been really hard. One of the things that's been really encouraging to me this past month, that I've struggled with rest issues, is almost every day, probably six days a week, I've been reading Revelation 21 and 22.
Noelle: And so there's another really practical thing that someone could do. Like, oh my goodness, just thinking about the next life. You just mentioned that, and I thought of that. Oh my goodness.
Janet: Yes. It will be worth it all.
Noelle: Yeah. This is not for forever, you know?
Janet: Yes.
Noelle: And so, oh my goodness. I hope that those of you listening feel, hope, and have a new hope. And also we just encourage you to, to talk to others about it. Don't struggle alone.
Janet: Yeah. Amen. Thank you.
To keep from missing any future episodes, please sign up for our newsletter on our webpage faithlafayette.org/JJP From there you can also subscribe to this podcast on Apple, Google, or Spotify. You can also visit us on our Facebook page or Instagram at Joyful Journey Podcast. If you have questions or comments for us, you can email us at joyfuljourneyquestions@outlook.com. Joyful Journey Podcast is a ministry of Faith Bible Seminary. All proceeds go to offset costs of this podcast and toward scholarships for women to receive their MABC through Faith Bible Seminary.
Host Janet and her husband, Brent, also speak at a variety of conferences as a way to raise money for the seminary. If you want to look at what they offer or book them for a conference, go to their website.
