Handling Mistreatment - with Kevin Carson
When someone you love causes you pain, how do you name what’s happening, and how do you respond in a way that honors Christ?
In this conversation, Janet Aucoin sits down once again with repeat guest Kevin Carson to explore how counselors discern the nature and depth of mistreatment in relationships, from safety concerns to a person’s emotional and spiritual well-being. Drawing from the stories of Job and Peter, they reflect on God’s compassion and mercy in the midst of suffering, and how His people are called to walk in trust, wisdom, and obedience even in confusing and painful circumstances.
Resources:
Podcasts
Helping Wives of Ungodly Husbands - Joyful Journey
The Hesed Love of God - Joyful Journey
Demonstrating Hesed Love - Joyful Journey
Loving Their Souls - Joyful Journey
Responding to Criticism - Joyful Journey
When Someone Else is Sinning - Joyful Journey
Website
Masters of Arts in Biblical Counseling
Transcript:
Jocelyn: I don't just need to feel better. I need the truth. And ultimately that will make me better.
Janet: I just want to make it as totally simple as possible for ladies to see that the Bible is really applicable to their everyday life.
Jocelyn: When they understand theology, the application flows out of it quickly with joy.
Janet: It is a journey, but even the journey itself is joyful when I'm doing it, holding the hand of my savior and trusting him all along the way. This is the joyful journey podcast, a podcast to inspire and equip women to passionately pursue beautiful biblical truth on their journey as women of God. When you choose truth, you're choosing joy.
Janet: Welcome back, listeners. This is Janet here once again, and I have a repeat special guest here with me, Kevin Carson.
Kevin: It is a pleasure to be with you.
Janet: I am so glad to have you back. Whenever Kevin is up to teach an MABC class, we try to snag him one evening and see if he'll talk to us.
Kevin: It is a joy. And you know what was wild is I met a brand new student this week, and in meeting the student, he said, "Oh, you said this." And I said, "Oh, where did you hear me say that?" He said, "On the Joyful Journey podcast."
Janet: Oh, funny. And it was a man.
Kevin: It was a man.
Janet: Ooh.
Kevin: Yes, so that's wild.
Janet: That's great. That's the hope is we get people on here that we know have things to say that would be helpful. And I asked if you would be willing to share with us some of the information you teach at our Biblical Counseling Training Conference on mistreatment, and I'm intrigued what you mean by that term mistreatment that we're gonna talk about today.
Kevin: Yeah, so the term itself, it's interesting because the world uses a lot of terms, and sometimes not very biblical terms, for the way that you get treated in relationships primarily.
Janet: Okay.
Kevin: Not circumstantial.
Janet: Yep.
Kevin: But in relationships, sometimes we say we're sinned against, sometimes we say we're going through suffering. And then of course some people say, "I've been abused."
Janet: Yep.
Kevin: And abuse has like, 100 definitions.
Janet: That's right.
Kevin: Just depends upon the person saying it.
Janet: Yep.
Kevin: So when I sit down with someone and they begin down that path, my mind goes to mistreatment because I don't know what's going on.
Janet: Yes.
Kevin: There's questions I need to ask.
Janet: Yes.
Kevin: And I'm not sure, but I do know the Bible talks about mistreatment.
Janet: Yes.
Kevin: And I know if I can stick with mistreatment in my own mind, it helps me stay on a path of sanctification. It helps me stay on the path.
Janet: Tell me what you mean by that.
Kevin: I wanna make sure my goal in the session because I'm a pastor.
Janet: Yes.
Kevin: I'm a biblical counselor, my goal needs to be, of course there's some key things, and we'll talk about 'em, that I wanna make sure I'm also doing, like safety.
Janet: Yes.
Kevin: But the bigger goal I have is to help this person become like Jesus.
Janet: Yes.
Kevin: In the midst of their circumstances that God is in the middle of.
Janet: Yes.
Kevin: This is playing out. Whatever is happening, it's playing out in a theater that God owns. It's a stage that God is the sovereign director. He's the one that's behind the scenes.
Janet: And He loves them.
Kevin: Yes.
Janet: And He loves them.
Kevin: Absolutely loves them.
Janet: Yes.
Kevin: And is concerned. As much as I'm concerned, He's more concerned.
Janet: Yes.
Kevin: And so I need to love them enough to think, I can't misthink. I need to think careful, think biblical. And so in my mind, mistreatment helps me do that.
Janet: So you, that for you is a broader, "Okay, I don't know all that's happening, but what I'm hearing is here's someone who's upset, angry, anxious, whatever they are because they're being mistreated."
Kevin: Yes.
Janet: So I don't know to what degree, I don't know what, but I know now I need to learn a lot more.
Kevin: Yes.
Janet: But what do I do?
Kevin: And so we're at least on that path.
Janet: Yes.
Kevin: And once we're on that path, now we can start asking the questions that help discern where do we need to go, what do we need to do?
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: One of the things I'm listening for, especially in light of our conversation, there's a lot of people who come to counseling, and they are being mistreated.
Janet: Yes.
Kevin: Guys and girls both. Probably primarily girls, but.
Janet: Yes.
Kevin: And ladies, I should say, probably. But they're not saying, "Hey, Pastor Kevin or Dr. Carson, would you please give me a way out?" Somehow find relief, right? They're not asking necessarily, just take this away from me.
Janet: As if you even could.
Kevin: Exactly.
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: But what they are saying is, I want to be faithful to Christ and faithful to the people around me.
Janet: And I don't know how to do that in this situation.
Kevin: How do I do that?
Janet: Yep.
Kevin: And so that's why I like the word mistreatment because we can talk about this and we can understand there are key Bible verses that speak to this issue. There are places we can go that, that give us light and give us.
Janet: Hope.
Kevin: Hope. Yeah, that's a great way to say it. We see the love of the Lord. We see the control of the Lord, right? At the end of the day, God wants us to trust Him.
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: Because He's trustworthy.
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: He loves us and loves our children, loves everything about us more than we do, right? And so it is a pleasure to be able to walk with someone like that and say, all right, this is what we think the Lord is doing. This is where we think you can grow and change. And I remember a particular friend that contacted me and the circumstance, I was hearing this person talk through their mistreatment.
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: And it was on multiple levels in a relationship. And as we were talking, I kept waiting for this individual to say, how do I get out?
Janet: Was this somebody already married?
Kevin: Yes.
Janet: Okay.
Kevin: Somebody already married.
Janet: Yep.
Kevin: How do I get out? What do I need to do? What are the steps? Right, I was just sitting kinda anxiously waiting for that.
Janet: For that.
Kevin: Question. Because it was heavy. The stuff I was hearing is stuff I wouldn't wanna hear about anybody, it was heavy mistreatment in various ways. Nothing physical, but just other ways of mistreatment. And so I kept leaving, all right, I would ask an open-ended question, and this lady would just ask better questions. She would say, "What about this? What about that?" And so eventually she said, "Really, I just wanna know, how can I be faithful?"
Janet: What a beautiful question.
Kevin: It was unreal. 'Cause I was anticipating.
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: This is horrible. No one would want to live in this.
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: No one would want to stay under this. And she was saying specifically, "I wanna serve Christ. I wanna serve my husband. I wanna serve my children who are watching. How can you help me do that myself spiritually, and then how can I serve this person who's mistreat me?"
Janet: Yes.
Kevin: It was so helpful to me because.
Janet: I love it.
Kevin: I was encouraged by her desire to just stay, and she did. That's been years ago, and God graciously worked, and it paid dividends. Yeah, so wonderful.
Janet: It is. And that doesn't mean that's always the right decision.
Kevin: Correct.
Janet: Even before the Lord.
Kevin: Yes. 100% true.
Janet: Yeah. And we know that, but to have a heart that is not saying, if something's hard, I want out. It's, this is hard. What's the right thing? How do I honor the Lord in the midst of this?
Kevin: 'Cause honoring the Lord may be.
Janet: To get out.
Kevin: Yes. Absolutely.
Janet: Right. Right.
Kevin: That might be the case.
Janet: But that number one isn't get out. Number one is, how do I honor the Lord? And that may be, but that's a beautiful thing. So as you're initially saying, I don't know yet a lot, are there, you have certain questions that you will ask.
Kevin: Yes.
Janet: To start to try to understand, what's actually happening, what's the level of mistreatment. What are some of those?
Kevin: So let me give you variety of 'em, and I'll try to explain 'em as we go.
Janet: Okay.
Kevin: The first one that I'm thinking, listening for, even if I don't say it immediately, but I'm gonna say it soon.
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: Is are you safe?
Janet: Yes.
Kevin: Is there something going on that would make us think you're not safe? And that could be from a variety of ways. Of course, physical.
Janet: Sure.
Kevin: Would be the primary one. But because if not, potentially, we need to involve the authorities, and.
Janet: Yes.
Kevin: And that's a decision-making process. But also, as a pastor of a church, as maybe this person goes to another church, we may need to involve some pastors to try to help.
Janet: Yes.
Kevin: Them work through it. So safety's a big issue. And then I love this question: What has this person's heart gripped in this moment? You mentioned, you actually just said a whole group of things. You said they could be anxious, they could be angry. We're gonna take all of the same situation A variety of handles. I, think of it as a pot, and it's like you have a pot on the stove top, and there are six or eight handles around the pot, not just one, and you can pick the one. You're still gonna work with the pot, but you're gonna pick the one that is the best one for this circumstance to work with. So it may be this young person or this individual is full of anger.
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: So we may need to pick that up. This person is very anxious. Maybe we need to pick that up. Now, that doesn't mean that's the long term. It's just where we start because that's the thing right now that the counselee, this individual's having a hard time seeing past it because that's the thing that's so heavy.
Janet: Right.
Kevin: Could be fear of the future. What do I do? It possibly even, and you and I have talked about this in the past, it possibly even is just definition. Right? I don't know what to call this.
Janet: Yes.
Kevin: I don't know what to think about it. I don't know.
Janet: Is this okay?
Kevin: Yes.
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: Please help me. I can't manage because I don't even know what to call this.
Janet: I'm confused.
Kevin: Yes.
Janet: Is it just I need to be better? Is it, am I wrong? Is he wrong? It feels wrong. I'm confused.
Kevin: Correct.
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: But the Bible speaks to every one of those things.
Janet: Yes.
Kevin: So we're just looking for the place to hold, but if you're just trying to get and handle the pot, any one of those handles may be appropriate. There may be two or three places to enter into this person's life, because you and I, as counselors, and anybody we're talking, you and I are counselors of course, but there's ladies in the audience. It might be somebody at work.
Janet: Yep.
Kevin: It may be somebody.
Janet: Yep.
Kevin: In the nursery.
Janet: A friend talking to you. Yep.
Kevin: It could be any place. And so all you're trying to do is say, how do I enter in this person's life with the love of Christ?
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: If she's anxious, of course it could be hims as well, but if she's anxious, how do I move with and talk anxiety?
Janet: And give hope.
Kevin: Yes.
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: So that's what I think of. So what has the person's heart gripped in this moment? And then of course, what else do we need to know about the situation? We just need to find out a little bit, and when we're doing that, we have to pay attention because, for instance, if somebody says, if you were to say to me, Brent and I had a fight last night. I literally know nothing of what you're saying.
Janet: That's right.
Kevin: I don't know anything.
Janet: That's right.
Kevin: And if I said to you.
Janet: But I might think I do, because I know what my fights look like.
Kevin: Correct.
Janet: So I assume.
Kevin: Yes.
Janet: That's what you mean.
Kevin: Yes.
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: It's shared experience.
Janet: Yes.
Kevin: But it may not be that shared. It's really more of a shared term.
Janet: Yes.
Kevin: Than a shared experience. I grew up in a home where no one ever raised their voice. It just didn't happen. Everybody spoke just normal voices, no matter what was going on, for the most part. Of course, there were instances, but if somebody had a raised voice, I was like.
Janet: That's a big deal.
Kevin: Oh I need to hide, right? There's, what's going on? We've got something happening here. So I'm looking for shelter if somebody has a raised voice. So if, so when we were first married, Kelly came from a house where their voices, not in fighting, they were just louder.
Janet: Yeah, I'm a loud person.
Kevin: Than what we are.
Janet: I get that.
Kevin: So if you and I were talking, and so let's take it out of marriage. Even if you and I are talking and you say, Kevin.
Janet: And I get all passionate and loud.
Kevin: Yeah. And I'm starting to think, oh, what's Janet angry! What do I do next? Where do I need to go? That's, so when you say fight, I'm thinking, oh, somebody must have raised their voice.
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: When in reality, fight may have been a plate was thrown.
Janet: Yes. Yes.
Kevin: Somebody locked somebody in a room. I don't know what that is. Or somebody went and hid because literally they were just.
Janet: They were scared.
Kevin: So we have to find out more about the situation. So it's not just enough to say either one, I've been abused or I'm being mistreated. We have to start digging a little bit deeper to say, so what's going on actually? What's taking place? And then when they use language, we have to make sure that the person's defining it and a good way to do that is to hear the word, right? So if we had a fight, then a follow-up question would be, so when you say fight, what do you mean?
Janet: What does that look like?
Kevin: Definition. And then you got to the next one. Which is video.
Janet: Okay. Okay.
Kevin: So what does that look like? So then, so now you've moved so that you have a much better understanding, and once you hear how it looks, now you can ask a follow-up question. Oh, you said that. Does that mean this? Open-ended as possible, but just trying to draw out of their story what they mean rather than it all be filled with my details 'cause I may not understand it at all.
Janet: It's just a good reminder to not make assumptions. And how easily we do that and don't even know it.
Kevin: And in this, you can't afford to do that with mistreatment. Because we don't wanna be confused on either end. We don't wanna think that something that the Bible and Christians have dealt with for thousands of years, and it's just normal everyday living where husbands and wives have.
Janet: Work through problems.
Kevin: We don't want that. We don't wanna elevate that to say, oh, boy, if that's what's going on, then you're gonna need to do X, Y, or Z, and we're misunderstanding.
Janet: Call the police, get a safe house. Yeah.
Kevin: But if they need the police and a safe house, I don't wanna treat that as if nothing's going on. So I've gotta ask more situational questions.
Janet: Excellent.
Kevin: Tell me a little bit about what's going on. The historical past, so is that new? Is this something that's been going on for a while? Maybe they say maybe she says something like it's the exact same thing my dad used to do. Ah, what are we talking about? So the historical past is helpful.
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: Of course, from the present, we wanna know what's happening now, and then there is a sense of the anticipated future, right? 'Cause that's part of their story. She is responding to a situation she anticipates.
Janet: Yes.
Kevin: Even though we're not there.
Janet: Yes.
Kevin: Part of it could be that she's reached out and asked somebody for help. That might produce some anticipated future problems. So all of that, and when we think of mistreatment, another question I like to ask is, so now that we're learning the situation, how do you respond to it? So if this is the, I like to use the illustration of the heat, right? So, if your heat, and we'll call that the situation, that is putting pressure on the ground, and under the ground is roots and so those roots we know in the Bible, it says from the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. So the fruit on the tree under certain heat, you look at this fruit and you say, what kind of fruit do we have? And so I'm gonna start asking fruit questions. So how are you responding? Right? I'm not gonna call it heat. I'm just heat or fruit necessarily. I'm just trying to help you think through it. So what is the fruit? How are you thinking? When he says that, when you said that happened, what were you thinking?
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: So I'm gonna, certainly ask that question. What are you wanting, right? What are your affections in the process. What are you desiring? Are you just wanting it to end? Right? There's a lot of things you can want in the midst of a circumstance. How about emotionally? What are you feeling? What are the emotions that you have? I'm just trying to learn what are the various ways you respond, your attitude, and then of course the big ones that you can see in here would be, what are you saying, what are you doing? Now, as we ask that question, we have to be aware that the person we're asking is holding the video. So potentially you're gonna hear a response that doesn't include much about self. So even though we're-
Janet: Interesting.
Kevin: Asking self questions. They have their video.
Janet: Their video doesn't show themselves.
Kevin: Because until recently we never took selfies.
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: That's pretty new for our age anyway.
Janet: That's right.
Kevin: But they have a video and they're telling us a story, but the person that you're not hearing much about possibly is the individual telling it.
Janet: Yes.
Kevin: So as we say, how did you respond? And you're asking those questions, it's actually drawing out that sense of, oh, yeah, this is what I did. And maybe you even hear I don't know what I was thinking. I'm not sure.
Janet: And that's really all they know.
Kevin: Right.
Janet: At that moment.
Kevin: And so that's a good question to ask as well. And then as we keep working through it, of course, at some point we're gonna say what are you wanting and desiring?
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: 'Cause that's an important element. Some side issues that I'm interested in would be what support does this person have?
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: Now, when we think of support, in my mind, I think, so what are the other family, key family members? 'Cause that could be support. Are they involved in a church?
Janet: Yes.
Kevin: So do they have a loving life group? Do they have a Sunday school teacher? Do they have a deacon or somebody? Do they have pastors that they know, or are they just pastors they observe and see on a stage? Is it other ladies, right? So is there a church? Is there family? And really when we think of support, we also have to think what do they know about the Bible? Because to be silly, but Matthew, Mark, Luke and John also offer us support. Paul offers us support.
Janet: Yes.
Kevin: So right there's a sense in which if this person doesn't know much about the Bible, then we have to immediately think, oh, boy, they have less support than what I hope. Cause we can't call on them to remember something or to.
Janet: That they don't even know.
Kevin: Yes. Or to pray about something or so if we say lament, they may have no idea what we're talking about. Possibly they've never read the Psalms. They just don't know. So when we think of support, in my mind, I think more than just simply people. I think about so what kind of situation are you in, and what biblical category best describes the person that we're talking to? So, the couple of them that I think of is this someone that is saved? Do I think they have a relationship with Christ or do they not?
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: Right? If they're saved, we know they have some support that is incredible support.
Janet: They have the Holy Spirit. Yeah.
Kevin: The Holy Spirit, the power of the resurrection. Eyes that Paul says have been enlightened, right?
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: They can begin to understand the significance of the Bible, right? So I think those are critical. As well they have a Savior that they know who loves them. They have a Savior that they get to walk with. They have a sense of Jesus is with them all the time. I wanna make sure, saved or unsaved, that's a big category. Another category that I think about is this person mature or immature? In fact, that's a fuzzy category. I don't know ... if they are or aren't. I'm just listening but if I don't hear any biblical categories, if I don't hear... if the question is, hey, what can I do? But when you ask questions as the conversation continues, they really haven't thought much about what does the Bible say, they don't even know what to think. It might be somebody fairly immature. Or maybe it's a statement like I just know God wants me to be happy. Okay, so I'm gonna catalog that as probably we need to work on that at some point.
Janet: Yep.
Kevin: But it's where we're starting.
Janet: Yep.
Kevin: So we may not start with God is sovereign. They may not know what that word means. Or if we talk about the providence of God, what does that mean, right? So mature/immature, the the last category would be is this person unruly, faint-hearted, or weak?
Janet: That's Thessalonians, right?
Kevin: 1 Thessalonians 5:14.
Janet: Yep.
Kevin: So an unruly person would be somebody who is just basically says, okay, whatever the truth is, I'm not interested in it. I'm gonna do my own thing. More than likely they're not that, 'cause that's why they're there to talk.
Janet: 'Cause they probably don't come see you. Yeah.
Kevin: Exactly. What's a faint-hearted person? That person usually will be gripped by fear.
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: Gripped by indecision. Maybe it is they would say, "I believe, I am convinced the Bible wants me to do something. I just don't know. That would be faint-hearted. It's not that they don't have a commitment to the Bible, and it's not that they aren't wanting to follow the Word, they're just not sure. So now we're walking as partners. Sure, let's walk through this. Let's think about it. I love to think about faint-hearted as with our grandkids, they're at the age of where they love the pool, but they don't know how to get in. We don't want them just jumping in.
Janet: Right.
Kevin: Right.
Janet: 'Cause they're little.
Kevin: Yes, they are little. One and three for me. And so you get on the side of the pool, and I imagine you did this some maybe last summer or you will this summer. You get on the side of the pool and you say, here, jump to grandma.
Janet: Yes, come to me.
Kevin: Yes. Come to me. And so you're wanting the child to just really take a step or to kinda lean down towards you, and you're gonna grab 'em and celebrate 'em and say, great work. That's what I think of when I think of faint-hearted. It's this person, for whatever reason, they're having a hard time taking the first step, and we get to come beside them and say, listen.
Janet: I'm right here
Kevin: Yes.
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: And I wanna walk with you.
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: And then so for the weak person the Bible uses the word you have to uphold the weak person. I can tell this is tough, and it saddens me it's tough, and I hate it for your situation. I hate it for your children. But this is what you can know. Christ is always with you, and we will be with you. We're gonna figure this out. We're gonna take every step. Because if you don't have faith, when you think about a weak person, if you don't have faith, maybe no one does, right? Seemingly, if they're saved, we know they have the Spirit. We know they can make it because the Spirit promises that. But this person seemingly can't. So we're gonna have as much trust and faith as we can in God and help this person make it.
Janet: Love it. Love it.
Kevin: So a lot of stuff there. And then finally, a question Randy Patton asks all the time, but I love it with mistreatment. I love it really for most things. But Randy just asks, what, if heard and obeyed, will help this counselee take the next step?
Janet: Not fix it. But what's the next step?
Kevin: Yes. Yeah and that's what's good for us.
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: That's good news. So if you're sitting, again, you have so many different kinds of listeners. If this person's sitting in a break room, that's where the conversation starts. So then you go out maybe for coffee. You say, hey, let's think through this. I'm really concerned about what you were talking about.
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: A lot of times we don't take the next step to go get the coffee because we're afraid we don't know the solution.
Janet: Yes.
Kevin: But we don't.
Janet: I can't fix this. Yeah.
Kevin: And we don't have to have the solution. We just need to help them take the next right step.
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: And if we can do that, before long you can get a good distance just by taking one step at a time. And a lot of it isn't it's because I know every next step. It's just, listen, we're just gonna walk together.
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: And let's see where this takes us.
Janet: And I think, you know, especially if it's a friend coming alongside somebody else, frequently, or at least sometimes, the next step is, who do we need to get involved?
Kevin: That's a great question.
Janet: Yeah. So it might not be...
Kevin: Absolutely great question
Janet: I gotta fix it.
Kevin: Yep.
Janet: But it might be, we gotta talk to the pastor together. I'll go with you.
Kevin: Yep.
Janet: Let's talk to the pastor. So it's not that I know what to do, but I know the next step would be to get your pastor involved, or the next step would be, if it's scary at that point, the police or whoever. Who else do we need to get involved that might know more than me but has the right goals?
Kevin: And so we're asking that, and we have a sense of we can help 'em do it, but we can't get in front of 'em. Right? A lot of ladies come to us, and maybe we think the next step is to call the police.
Janet: But they're not ready.
Kevin: No. So now we're saying, okay, what is the next step? And thankfully, we have pastors and people like that we can call and say, hey, I'm talking to this individual, right? Giving 'em minimal information. But do you have just a few things?
Janet: Yeah. How can I help? Yeah.
Kevin: How can I help?
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: Good blogs, of course. That types of stuff's helpful as well.
Janet: So you've asked a lot of questions. What are other things that we need to be thinking about when it comes to mistreatment?
Kevin: Well, in my mind, we have to understand that mistreatment fits inside the Bible's parameters, right? Mistreatment is at home in the Bible because people both were mistreated, and Christians, right in Acts, we see all kinds of places where people are mistreated.
Janet: Yes.
Kevin: And the Bible was written to give us the answers we need to be able to respond Godly, to be able to honor the Lord in a tough situation. So, I wanna make sure, and it may not be in the first conversation, but I wanna make sure that this person has some sense of what does the Bible teach, right? The Bible talks about trials. It talks about tribulations. It talks about these places where people are mistreated and we see things where people are sinned against, but it gives us goals in the midst of that, and it doesn't leave us just wondering what am I supposed to do?
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: So it's fascinating. Even sometimes it gives us a sense of a source. 'Cause you've probably had ladies say this to you, well, what have I done...
Janet: Yes.
Kevin: That's made this happen?
Janet: That's right.
Kevin: They're coming for counseling to try to figure out what I did to cause it.
Janet: That's right.
Kevin: And we don't know. We find out a lot of times, is it what did I do to him? Sometimes it's what do I do to the Lord?
Janet: That God is punishing me. Yeah.
Kevin: But then Jesus is talking to the disciples, and the disciples said, Jesus, who sinned?
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: In John 9.
Janet: Yes.
Kevin: It, was it his parents? Was it this child? And Jesus says, no. No one sinned. This was allowed, right? In God's providence, it was allowed for the glory of God, and God is working through something. That was sickness.
Janet: Mm-hmm.
Kevin: But still, it's this sense of sometimes we may not even be able to put our finger on it, but we certainly know that there's a goal in the midst of it. And so we know God is up to something good. Even though people sin against us, right, I wanna make sure I'm being clear. God is up to something good because He can use this circumstance to help me grow in my relationship with Him, grow in my intimacy with the Lord, become mature in my thinking, and there is something God is doing. There's something He's doing in me in the midst of this.
Janet: Yes.
Kevin: So I don't wanna miss that. So God is doing something good even when what's happening isn't good.
Janet: Is bad. Yeah. It could be evil.
Kevin: And we don't want, I think you and I, when we were talking, at one point you were saying, sometimes it's just wicked.
Janet: Yes.
Kevin: Let's call it. This is.
Janet: Call it what it is.
Kevin: Yes. And so when we look at that, we just have to say, So what is this? It's evil, but you can't miss that in God's economy, He can still use what's evil for His good.
Janet: Yes.
Kevin: And for your good.
Janet: Yes.
Kevin: Because if as we walk through this, you get closer to the Lord, you are eternally better. There are things going on here, even we don't, the marriage isn't the goal, right? There's a lot of things that aren't necessarily the goal.
Janet: That's right.
Kevin: But if you can walk through this, we can help you, you can stay safe, the things that we're looking to do, and also be more like Christ, and actually develop a relationship with Christ, and realize that my hope is there. I love, I've been in Colossians recently, where Paul says, Christ in you is the hope of glory. It's not that I have all the answers. It's not that this man loves me perfectly. It's whatever the thing is. It's not that my boss isn't mean occasionally, 'cause that could be mistreatment. It's simply Christ in you is the hope that we have, and.
Janet: And that's secure.
Kevin: Yes.
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: He is always faithful.
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: Never changes. So I think that's part of it, too, right? So we're thinking the big picture.
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: Because in the middle of mistreatment, it's easy to miss the big picture of what God typically does in trials and temptations because are so fixated on the hurt.
Janet: Our suffering makes our world small.
Kevin: Oh, that's a good way to say it.
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: Yeah.
Janet: And I remember when I took a class by John Henderson, he talked about our job being to keep pulling them out to 30,000 feet. . 'Cause they're gonna keep trying to make. It just feels so big that all you can think about is this one small thing, and it's like our job to keep making it bigger to, which is exactly what you're saying.
Kevin: Yes.
Janet: Hey, let's look at what God's doing.
Kevin: John says it so much better. But yes. It's a shame you didn't interview John. That's a. But you're 100% right. If you get so fixated on what's going on and who's doing it and the this happened, then this, you're so into the narrative you miss the grander narrative.
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: Is that God is using this with eternity in mind.
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: And so we don't wanna miss that. There is a loving God who has not forsaken you. He is listening, right? When you call out to Him, when you cry, the Psalmist just simply said, He collects your tears in a bottle.
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: Because He's listening, and He cares, and He wants to help you. Thankfully, in counseling, we can give them, help them get there.
Janet: And that may take a long time.
Kevin: Oh, yeah.
Janet: So you're talking about it, but it's not okay that's the first 20 minutes.
Kevin: Oh, yeah.
Janet: And then we move on to like that, you're right, that could be a long time of helping them learn that they really can trust a God, even God allowing hard things. 'Cause that's the same God that orchestrated the murder of His own son. Because it was best for my soul. Yeah.
Kevin: We know that God works in the toughest situations because Jesus's death is the worst.
Janet: Is the toughest ever.
Kevin: In its history.
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: But God did it, and He did it for our good.
Janet: Yes.
Kevin: And He did it to benefit us. There might, there's a couple texts that've come to mind. As you enter into this.
Janet: Yes.
Kevin: There's a couple things I think of sometimes. One of 'em I love that, so I wanna go to some that maybe we miss.
Janet: Okay.
Kevin: But one of 'em I love is James 5. 'Cause James, remember the context, these people are being mistreated, 100% mistreated. I don't know if you recall verse one says, but he says, James is to the 12 tribes which are scattered abroad. You can read that and say, What in the world are we talking about? What we're talking about is the 12 tribes relate to the Christians who were saved on the Day of Pentecost. They were all Jews. Remember they had.
Janet: Yes.
Kevin: Come in, and so they're all in Jerusalem. They hear this wonderful message. Thousands begin to get saved.
Janet: Yes.
Kevin: And so now Jerusalem is full of Christians, but then Stephen dies.
Janet: Yes.
Kevin: And persecutions begin. Then they run for their lives. They run without money because they've given out all their money. Remember how Acts talks about.
Janet: Yes.
Kevin: They were bringing all their money?
Janet: They had everything in common.
Kevin: Yes.
Janet: They left everything, yep.
Kevin: Well, now they're penniless. Many of 'em are being put into slavery. They are finding that they're being mistreated. They trust people who they find out aren't trustable.
Janet: Yes.
Kevin: And so all these bad things are happening, and James, as our good pastor, is writing this letter to them to help them. So this is a letter to mistreated people. This is a letter to people who are in.
Janet: That's a good point.
Kevin: Significant struggle. And he says, so he says a lot of good things, but in chapter five, he talks specifically about the mistreatment. He says, come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries that are coming upon you. What is he saying? The rich here are the ones doing the oppression. They're the ones doing the mistreatments and.
Janet: They're mistreating others.
Kevin: Correct.
Janet: Okay.
Kevin: So this isn't, he's not talking to the Christians here, he's talking to the people that are hurting the Christians. And then he says, your riches are corrupted, your garments are moth-eaten. Your gold and silver are corroded, and their corrosion will be a witness against you. With whom? With God. God's watching it.
Janet: So he's saying, you are gonna pay for this.
Kevin: Oh, absolutely.
Janet: That's, so he's letting them know, it's coming.
Kevin: It is coming.
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: He says, You have heaped up treasure in the last days. It's not the kind they want. This is not good. Indeed, the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you've kept back by fraud, he says the wages cry out.
Janet: Wow.
Kevin: We were talking about it earlier about is God collecting your tears? But James is saying, yeah, God's not just simply collecting your tears, He hears where you've been cheated. You don't have to say, I was cheated. You don't have to say, this person mistreated me by their ugly words. Nope, God heard those words, and those words are being.
Janet: And He wants to hear from you, but it's.
Kevin: Right.
Janet: Not like you're telling Him something He doesn't already know.
Kevin: He knows and He's concerned, and He's collecting those as part of the problem. He says, the cries of the reapers have reached the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth. The God who hears, the God who takes care, the God who can do. He's the God of armies, right? He's the God of everything. He's hearing, He's taking care of. It says, You have lived on the earth in pleasure and luxury. You have fattened your hearts as in the day of slaughter. You have condemned, you have murdered the just, and the just does not resist you. These people are being mistreated, and there's nothing they can do about it.
Janet: They have no power.
Kevin: No. And what James is saying, you're in a bad place. You may feel like you have power now. You may feel like you can mistreat. You may feel like you've got the upper hand, but you don't. There is a God that's paying attention, and He will take care of this. It's under His watch. So I think that's a good reminder.
Janet: Yes. 'Cause it doesn't feel that way when you're being oppressed, when you're under. But it's true.
Kevin: God is watching. God pays attention. He observes, He hears, and He will hold them account.
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: This is a, he's talking about riches and those types of things, but he's using legal language. What you're doing, you'll have charges against you.
Janet: Yes.
Kevin: Because God's paying attention. So what does that do for the person mistreated? That helps them know I am really not alone.
Janet: Yes.
Kevin: And maybe I don't even understand the full extent of my mistreatment. Maybe I don't understand all the ways they've robbed me or all the ways they've sinned against me. I don't even know the extent of all that's happened. Somebody does.
Janet: Yes.
Kevin: And I can.
Janet: And that's sobering.
Kevin: Trust that somebody. Yes.
Janet: And I think about it this may be asking too much of them, but even in my life when I know that I have been sinned against and I'm tempted to be bitter, angry, all the things, when you realize if this person doesn't repent, this is what's in store for them, it can actually even help grow in me a kernel of mercy even for the one sinning against me. 'Cause they're not going to get away with it.
Kevin: No.
Janet: They either repent or it's gonna be bad.
Kevin: Yes, so that's where in Romans Paul says, the Lord says vengeance is His.
Janet: Yes.
Kevin: He will repay. And we just have to depend on that. And so James begins there, hey, God's seeing what's happening. You're not alone. That's another way to say it.
Janet: Yes.
Kevin: You're not alone.
Janet: And it feels so isolating.
Kevin: So it might be in the middle of the night. It might be when the lights are off. It might be.
Janet: When nobody else would see.
Kevin: But Psalm 139, which you and I have probably counseled maybe hundreds.
Janet: Yes.
Kevin: Of times. Psalm 139 says, even in the middle of the night, it's like day to you.
Janet: Yes.
Kevin: They're not hiding from God.
Janet: It's not even hard to see.
Kevin: No. It's like it's the middle of the day.
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: So God is paying attention. And I think and there may be listeners that are being mistreated.
Janet: Yes.
Kevin: There's something I want them to hear. God is right in the middle of it. He sees it.
Janet: Yes.
Kevin: He's not ignorant of your trouble.
Janet: And He cares.
Kevin: Oh, He absolutely cares, and He cares enough that He's gonna do something about it.
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: He'll hold them accountable. I love, can I just switch passages real quick, and I'll come back to James? But I was talking with some people today, thinking through Ecclesiastes 12. And in Ecclesiastes 12 the story is when we look around in our world and we try to figure out what's going on, there's a lot of times we just won't figure it out. But we can't leave it alone. The Lord has built in us a desire to make sense of our world.
Janet: It's so true. You wanna understand even when you're like, why would that person do that? What were they thinking? Yeah.
Kevin: And when that happens, all you have to know is, oh, I'm alive. 'Cause all people alive do that.
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: 'Cause it says in every man, He's put this desire, and what this desire does is it exercises us. And so how does it exercise us? In 12, this, I'm just giving you the conclusion. He says, let's hear the conclusion, the whole matter. This is in verse 13, fear God and keep His commandments, for this is man's all. So let's pause there for one moment. So when he says fear God, he's saying, trust me. Be in awe that I can use all of these things.
Janet: Mm.
Kevin: Be in awe that I'm in the middle of this moment, and yes, you're the one experiencing mistreatment, but you're not alone in it. And again, we think of Christ and we realize, and no one experienced what Christ experienced. None of us will ever experience that. So God knows it from the standpoint of Christ experienced it, but at the same time, He is aware of what's happening to us in this moment, and it says to fear God. A way to talk about fearing God, it just means to respect Him, or you could even say, simply trust Him.
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: Trust God, and then he says, keep His commandments. Right? Back in the day when you and I were both much younger, it was not uncommon for churches to sing, trust and obey.
Janet: Yes.
Kevin: For there's no other way. There's no other way. To be happy in Jesus.
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: But to trust and obey. That was really rich theology. It didn't feel like it when we were singing it. But that's so rich. That's what he's saying in Ecclesiastes. Solomon's literally saying, I can't make sense of my world, but this is the conclusions. In fact, the next line, this is man's all. When you boil it all down, what does God want? He wants you to trust Him, which fearing God really implies also walking with Him.
Janet: Yeah. Orienting around Him. Yeah.
Kevin: That's excellent. It's the beginning of wisdom. So I wanna trust God, I wanna make my life around God, and I wanna do what He wants me to do, for this is my all. This is what God wants from me. Then the next verse is so helpful. He says, for God will bring every work into judgment. There are days I need to hear that. There are days when I've been sinned against, there are days when things didn't go my way, there are days when I think, this is miserable. I need to remember, I need to trust God and obey Him, and remember He will bring every work into judgment. And he says, including every secret thing, whether good or bad, or good or evil. In other words, He is going to take care of this.
Janet: Yes.
Kevin: It's not secret.
Janet: And if I am really seeking to be obedient and nobody sees that, He does too.
Kevin: Ah, such a good point. Yeah. Absolutely.
Janet: I love that 'cause that's hope that even when it feels pointless that I'm trying to do the right thing, it's not.
Kevin: So the Lord says, trust me and obey. That's all I'm wanting you to do in this. So we say, what's the next step? What's the next right step?
Janet: Yes.
Kevin: I know for sure I just need to trust the Lord. Now I may need to pray and call out to Him, lament, right? There are other things.
Janet: Yes.
Kevin: I may need to do, but that's all part of trusting. So I need to trust him. I need to try to do what He's asking me to do, and then what's the nagging question? But what about?
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: What about this person who's mistreating me?
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: What about this part of the situation? What about my finances? And the Lord says, no, I am actually seeing it. You don't have to think. That it is a trick of the devil to believe you're alone, 'cause you're not.
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: 'Cause not only are you not alone, but I see it. I'm paying attention, and everything will come under judgment. I think what a kindness of the Lord to remind us that.
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: 'Cause he knows that's where our mind's gonna go.
Janet: That's right.
Kevin: He knows we're saying, what do I do? Trust me and obey me. And then what about them? He says nope, I've got that.
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: You can focus on trusting and obeying because I'm gonna focus on this other part.
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: It's not secret. That's what I love. 'Cause in mistreatment, it's often secret.
Janet: Yes.
Kevin: It's often hid either behind a door, in a house, online, but there's hidden in ways that you see this mistreatment take place, could be stealing. But you realize, oh no, that wasn't a secret.
Janet: That's right. That's right.
Kevin: And by the time they figure that out, it might be hard. That's the reality too. But either way, God says, it's not a secret.
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: So if we think back to James, so what is James saying? James saying, hey, you rich people. 'Cause they represent all the oppressors, they represent the people that are doing the mistreating just beware.
Janet: Yes.
Kevin: I know what's going on. You're gonna be held accountable for it.
Janet: Yeah. Judgment is coming.
Kevin: Yes. Then he says to us that may be being mistreated, he says, therefore, since I've got all of that, since I'm taking care of it, he says, therefore, what? Be patient. Be patient. He says, until the coming of the Lord. He puts eternity. So he's not just simply interested in a momentary fix. He's not simply interested in how do I get this mistreatment over with? How do I get past this? He's saying, no, there's something much better coming. The coming of the Lord fixes all of it.
Janet: Yes.
Kevin: The coming of the Lord promises eternity. The coming of the Lord is the very best, blessed life any of us could have, and that's what he holds out. He says, listen, be patient. And then he uses the example of the farmer. He says, remember how the farmer waits.
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: He just has to wait patiently. and what's important is to see that when the seed goes in, and then the plant, it begins a process that's not defined by the seed. It's not defined by the farmer. The process is designed by the creator So when, I love his illustration because I'm in the midst of mistreatment, I don't know what to do with it. He says, listen, just be patient because there is a future day that sometimes the world system's so loud we can forget how wonderful eternity.
Janet: Yes.
Kevin: What a beautiful fix it's gonna be, what a beautiful time with true intimacy with the Lord forever. But he says, be like the farmer, because just like the seed goes in and there's a process, it tells us there's a process. God is working.
Janet: Mm-hmm.
Kevin: Right? Even though we can't see it. Think about it. You put a seed in the ground. There's a number of days, depending on what seed you put in, and you don't know how long, you don't know what. But you can't see anything happening.
Janet: And there's nothing you can do.
Kevin: You just have to.
Janet: Except obey. If there's part of what we're told to do is water it, we water it. 'Cause that's part of obedience.
Kevin: But yet even in when we're watering it, you can't see anything happening.
Janet: But that's right. That's right. Doesn't seem to matter.
Kevin: So I have to be patient. But I can be patient when my trust is in the Lord.
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: So I keep watering. It's eventually gonna pop through the ground. Now all I see is just green. I don't know when it's gonna actually have the product. Right?
Janet: Any fruit.
Kevin: Yes. I'm not sure when that's going to be. I can't guarantee that. And again, I don't design it. I can't control it. It's not up to me to fix it. It's up to me to possibly fertilize. It's up to me to do my part, as you said just a second ago, water. But the big picture's not controlled by me at all. It's controlled by the Lord. And so he says, be patient. Wait for the Lord. He says, so be patient, verse 8, and then he says, establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand. When he talks about establish your heart, it's girded up. It's if I'm not careful, I become so fixated on all of my circumstances that I miss God.
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: I forget to read. I forget to pray. Maybe I forget to talk to friends. And that's where we wanna invite friends into our life.
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: I really do need to talk to you. Can you just send me a text? Or we were talking to somebody today, the two of us was that when he was going through a particular tough time, he invited a friend, and they had a predefined time where they prayed together.
Janet: Yes.
Kevin: All they're doing is they're establishing their hearts.
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: It was gonna be a tough. It was even circumstantial.
Janet: Yep.
Kevin: There was an immediate tough circumstance. It happened with clockwork. And so what he did is he said, hey, my friend, you love me. And the friend was, absolutely, I love you, and I wanna enter into the presence of the Lord with you. I wanna establish your heart.
Janet: I wanna help remind you and take you back to the Lord.
Kevin: And.
Janet: The beauty of biblical community that takes us back to the Lord. Yes.
Kevin: And so you say, how do I help somebody who's mistreated? That's the way I help them.
Janet: Yes.
Kevin: I help them. I get them to the Lord. I walk with them to the Lord. It's.
Janet: Yes.
Kevin: And in the process of doing that, it establishes my heart. Now, he doesn't say just do that. He's also says verse nine, and don't grumble. I have to watch what I say.
Janet: Yes.
Kevin: Because potentially I make it worse. You say, so what is a grumble? There's a lot of ways you can tease that out. There's a grumble that I say to you. So I say, Oh, Janet, you would never believe what happened today, and this and this and this. And so now I'm grumbling, and somebody's hearing it. But the grumble that's the hardest grumble is the one that happens deep in my soul. It never, my lips never move, but my soul's talking chatty, and I'm just grumbling, right? It becomes the background noise of my life is my grumbling, not the presence of the Lord.
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: Not walking with Him, not longing for that future day when the Lord comes back, not seeing it in light of all of those other things, and note he says here, and he's talking about the fact that if we're not careful, we shouldn't grumble. He says, the judge is standing at the door. That really plays both ways. One, I need to be careful what I'm thinking as I go along, but it's a good reminder the judge is at the door. When Jesus returns, there's two sides of that coin, right? The person who's mistreating, the person who's done so poorly, the judge is at the door.
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: Then he flips it and he's encouraging their endurance, and he says, hey, take the prophets, right? Take them as a good example of suffering and patience. And he says, if we think about those prophets, and right, there's some great Old Testament stories, and that's why Paul says, go to the Old Testament and learn those stories because they help you.
Janet: Yes.
Kevin: They help you see you. They help you see circumstances. He says, indeed, we count them blessed to endure. And we see it in the Old Testament.
Janet: Yes, we see how it was good.
Kevin: Yeah. And even in James, early in chapter 1, he says what? Blessed is the man that endures. There is a promised blessing, and when we think about the Old Testament, we see it. When we think about today, we see it. And then he gives some examples. He says, You've heard of the perseverance of Job. This is fascinating. He says, you see the end intended by the Lord. We see it, but Job didn't see it.
Janet: Job didn't.
Kevin: Job just had to walk it And was he mistreated? Arguably, you could say he's mistreated by all three of the people that were supposed to love him. Actually, if you add Mrs. Job-
Janet: Yes, who told him to curse God.
Kevin: You could say he was mistreated by four people. And what happens? There was an end intended by the Lord, and the Lord was using it. Was there evil involved? Absolute evil. These people that Job trusted, these people that Job thought was gonna help, these people that came with the intention of helping him.
Janet: They did.
Kevin: Sometimes those that mistreat us ... don't initially intend to do that, but they got heated. They got in the middle of this discussion with Job. They misunderstood the situation. They misunderstood Job. It just got worse and worse the longer they went, and before long they're mistreating Job. He says, look at the end intended by the Lord. The Lord is very compassionate and merciful, and that's what we depend on. The Lord's heart is open. The Lord's heart is full of mercy. He doesn't give us what he deserves. And you say, how does that apply to Job? With Job, remember he really struggled, and maybe some of your listeners now are struggling. Maybe some of them are saying, you know what? I hear what you're saying, but I don't understand the Lord.
Janet: Yes.
Kevin: I think, can I just give just one or two things here? I thought about this earlier today. It's easy in the middle of mistreatment to say, oh, if the Lord is here and involved, then why is he not helping?
Janet: He must not care.
Kevin: Correct. And I say, okay, I understand your point, but let's go to Genesis, because the Lord was there and the world was perfect. And still they bought the same lie.
Janet: Mm-hmm.
Kevin: He must not care.
Janet: Because He cares.
Kevin: 'Cause He told you can't have that one.
Janet: Yes.
Kevin: It didn't say.
Janet: Of all and the beautiful.
Kevin: Yeah.
Janet: We're saying what we've always said.
Kevin: I understand from the standpoint I've been mistreated, but I get, I hear what the person's saying, God can't be good and do this. But in a perfect world, in the garden.
Janet: We said the same thing.
Kevin: Yes. Because it's our perspective, right? It's part of the depravity. It's easy to misunderstand. But what he says here is, the Lord is very compassionate and merciful. So I think that's important. The second element is Job was so rude. He was unkind to God.
Janet: Yes.
Kevin: He accused God.
Janet: He did.
Kevin: He has, when chapter 31 ends, Job has his fist in the air and he says, I dare you come down here. I will take you to court, right? He's the Supreme Court justice of his day. Said, I will take you to court and I will win because you are wrong.
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: He's convinced, you're unfair. You get to Elihu talks, and then God begins to talk to Job, and he ask him these 68 rhetorical questions.
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: Where were you?
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: So tell me, Job, give me, help me out here. He never says, I'm angry. He asks hard questions, and the truth of the Lord sometimes is hard. So he does ask hard questions, but he doesn't. We read it, and if we're not careful, we can read it harsh, but really he's just asking questions. Then he gets to the middle and he says, so what do you have to say, Job? Job says, I think I've already said too much already. I think I'm gonna put my hand over my mouth. It's.
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: So he says, I'm gonna.
Janet: I think I'm done.
Kevin: Yeah. I'm gonna put my hand over my mouth and then God starts again. And then He starts again. That's what's fascinating is the second part. So the first part, he's like, okay, so where were you? What was going on? Do you quite know everything you think you know? Nope, I don't, and I'm just gonna quit talking. Second part, he says, and would you have made the Leviathan? Would you have done this? Would you have done that? What he's getting at in that second element is, I am doing things that you don't understand.
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: I'm doing things with a greater purpose. You don't even begin to understand it all. And then you get to chapter 42, and Job says, I just repent."
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: He said, I heard you with the hearing of the ears, but now I see you. But his relationship changed.
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: His intimacy with the Lord changed. And then you find the funniest verse. He looks at, God looks at the friends and says, my anger is actually against you. These friends who mistreated, these friends who should have said what was right, they didn't, and that's what God said. He said, You didn't say what was right.
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: Ask my servant Job. Job hadn't said what was right either.
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: But that's what's so cool. God is more merciful. So here in James, he says what? God is full of compassion and mercy. We, part of our suffering gets harder because the more we get angry and the harder we fight back against the circumstances, the harder we take the mistreatment as this isn't just by this person, but it's by the Lord, too. And right? We begin to spread the guilt of it a bit.
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: And as that happens, it just gets us even more oppressed, right? Things get darker. Life is harder, but James comes along and he says, listen. No, the Lord is full of compassion. The Lord loves you. And Job, even though he sinned so egregiously in those chapters, God didn't say, yeah, and I'm gonna just be angry at you for a while.
Janet: No. He still did what was best for Job. He was helping him learn. He was helping him change instead of God saying, I don't need to talk to somebody who talks to me like that.
Kevin: God came, but He didn't come to fight him.
Janet: No, He came to help him.
Kevin: And when He did help him, he goes to the friends and he says, well, actually I'm angry at you because you were the ones who didn't say what was right. And again, know I'm making a big deal out of that, but Job didn't say what was right either.
Janet: I wonder if that's in part Job repented.
Kevin: It is. It is. That's exactly what it is.
Janet: And that that was right.
Kevin: And God, think about Peter. So Peter denies the Lord. Peter. God, Jesus specifically said, you need to prepare for temptation. When are you gonna do this tonight? And Peter says, it won't be me. Totally ignored Him.
Janet: Yep.
Kevin: And what happens? Jesus comes back, the angel talks to Mary, right? So we're now post-resurrection.
Janet: Yes.
Kevin: Peter denies the night before the cross. Three times the cock, of course, crowed, and when that happened, Peter takes off. He has to be devastated.
Janet: Oh, I can't imagine.
Kevin: But he has to be overwhelmed. Now Jesus, it's the Sunday, the resurrection. The angel says, go get the disciples and Peter. In Jesus' plan, Peter needed to be there.
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: Peter denied Him. He didn't listen to Him. He didn't obey Him. He struggled, right? There's so many different ways we could blame Peter for just walking out on his friend. He said, I love you. Later, he does it again in John, but I love you. I'm not gonna ever do this. I'll even die with you. And that certainly wasn't true. But Jesus did not leave Peter alone.
Janet: Yes.
Kevin: He says, go get the disciples and bring Peter. And I think there are people who are mistreated, and the words we never hear, sometimes the thoughts we never hear, even as counselors, it can be so ugly. It can be so confusing. I just, I don't know what the Lord is doing. I hate what the Lord is doing. But what James says is, no, the Lord is full of compassion.
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: He's full of mercy. And so the one that's listening can come back. The ones that listening, the first right step may be, I don't even have words for how I feel, Lord, but I know that I've just heard Kevin and Janet say to me that the Lord is full of compassion and mercy, and I'm gonna choose to trust that in this moment.
Janet: Yeah. So I'm coming to you.
Kevin: I'm gonna come to you, and you have to know you're just like Peter, and Jesus welcomed him.
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: He's getting ready to jump out of the boat and run to Him. He's getting ready within just a couple chapters. Now, let me go back one more thing. About Peter, one of the coolest things in the world is when Jesus says, you're gonna deny me three times, and then you're gonna serve me. Right before Peter sinned, jesus knew all that, and was living on the other side of it. Think about how cool that is, 'cause some of the people that are potentially listening that have been mistreated, they need to hear both that Jesus is, as James says, He is very compassionate and merciful. But they need to know that Jesus is already living on the other side.
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: Jesus knows the big picture. Jesus sees it. And even though in real time you may feel discouraged, you may feel like you're just, your relationship with Jesus is on life support, the reality is Jesus is already past it.
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: Jesus is willing. He's merciful. He's compassionate. He's willing to take whatever faith you have that walks toward Him, and He draws near to you.
Janet: Yeah.
Kevin: And He's ready to move on. I love so, James isn't a text you might often go to, but it's such an important one.
Janet: I love that.
Kevin: To help us think.
Janet: I've never used it for this. That's excellent. I love it.
Kevin: Yeah. So hopefully that's helpful.
Janet: That's very helpful. And I know there are other passages that you use, and we'll have you come back at another time. We'll get to do more passages. But I do hope that people can listen to this and know, the Word of God is rich. And you just shared a passage I've never used from James to help us with a picture of God sees the oppressor. And I even think about the mercy to the oppressor of warning them.
Kevin: Oh, isn't that good? Yes.
Janet: Like, he doesn't say, it's pointless. I'm not even gonna talk to them. There's a warning there, and they could turn.
Kevin: Yes.
Janet: And repent.
Kevin: Yep. Isn't that neat?
Janet: And, yes, that's his heart for them, too.
Kevin: It is. And the combination of the two, there's help for the person who's being mistreated.
Janet: Yes.
Kevin: And part of it you say where's the help? It starts with the Lord.
Janet: Yes.
Kevin: He's full of mercy. He's full of compassion. So be patient.
Janet: Yes.
Kevin: Rest, trust, obey, right? All those things, because it's not a secret.
Janet: And there's much more, obviously 'cause obey means a lot of things.
Kevin: Oh.
Janet: So we're not.
Kevin: Yeah.
Janet: Doing all that today.
Kevin: Yep.
Janet: That's the start. There are other podcasts when we talk about what does that look like? We have wives of ungodly husbands and hesed, looking at the love of God ... and what it looks like. And then biblical love in action, loving their souls, different ways that we talk about how do we start fleshing out what does it look like to be faithful in hard circumstances. So we would commend those to you as well. But thank you for talking tonight, Kevin.
Kevin: Oh, yes, my joy. And I really hope those first questions just give you a sense of just getting some good data.
Janet: Yes.
Kevin: So you know where to start.
Janet: That's right.
Kevin: But it's never gonna hurt us to say, hey, go to the Savior.
Janet: Yes. Amen. Amen.
Kevin: Of all the other things we can do, I at least need to take you to the Savior.
Janet: Yes. Amen. Thank you.
To keep from missing any future episodes, please sign up for our newsletter on our webpage faithlafayette.org/JJP From there you can also subscribe to this podcast on Apple, Google, or Spotify. You can also visit us on our Facebook page or Instagram at Joyful Journey Podcast. If you have questions or comments for us, you can email us at joyfuljourneyquestions@outlook.com. Joyful Journey Podcast is a ministry of Faith Bible Seminary. All proceeds go to offset costs of this podcast and toward scholarships for women to receive their MABC through Faith Bible Seminary.
Host Janet and her husband, Brent, also speak at a variety of conferences as a way to raise money for the seminary. If you want to look at what they offer or book them for a conference, go to their website.
